HFU HF Underground
General Category => General Radio Discussion => Topic started by: ChrisSmolinski on April 29, 2017, 1628 UTC
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Lots of proposed changes to Family Radio Service (FRS) , General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) , and Citizen's Band Radio Service (CBRS)
http://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog/2017/04/fcc_reforms_part_95_rules_for_personal_radio_services.aspx
FCC document here: https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-344617A1.pdf
One big change for CB: the power levels stay the same, but DX/skip operation would become legal.
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The skip rule has been the Achilles Heel of CB since it was founded. Who could resist the temptation to talk to another op on the other side of the country or the world? It's human nature. And it often occurs accidentally. I remember my first long distance contact was a guy in South Dakota while screwing around with a standard five watt CB. I was twelve and it shocked me to death that he could hear me calling "Break".
I had an Uncle who was CB op from early on. I remember clearly the shift to using high power amps and ham transmitters to do the job when the skip rolled in and the pile-ups started to get too much to be heard over with five watts. The fiends switched to "handles" about that time, too. He had DX-60 stashed in a built secret drawer he added to his desk for long distance yapping. 15 watts of carrier, that scofflaw!
It's not going to end high power ops, but it's a baby step in cutting out the silly regulations surrounding CB and services like it.
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As I recall, one rationale for the anti-skip rule was that the phone companies did not want CB radio competing with their profitable long-distance calling services. Of course, that makes no sense nowadays.
I can remember, back in the late 70s/early 80s, being able to talk to Australia from SoCal on an almost routine basis. I shudder to think what an equivalent phone call would have cost back then.
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Way off peak hours to Melbourne in '83, where my Aunt was living to my Mom's place ran about 35 bucks for the first 15 minutes and dropped from there, Al. Her husband got a bit of a break on their end because he worked for a company that was upgrading Australia's satellite telcomms.
I was visiting one Xmas when my Aunt called. You could hear both ends of the conversation as they figured since they were halfway around the world from each other, they had to shout? I'd get on the phone and talk a minute or two with the Aunt, and maybe half that with the Uncle. The first thing I said to him was, "Do you think they can hear each other?" He came back with "They could hear each other if they opened the windows."
The scary thing is they were both women with post-grad degrees. Grandpa sold a bunch of cows to educate those two. That's a lot of milk down the drain for nothin'.
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I think they should boost CB output. Even just to 15 or 25 watts for AM. 4 watts may have been useful in 1970, but we have a lot more EMF stuff going on these days. 4 watts might not even go several blocks.
Was the no skip rule ever enforced? I know nowadays very little enforcement takes place on CB in general. I am actually considering getting one - out here in the rural area it's just locals talking to each other, not the circus one gets in a suburban or urban area.
Legal 4 watt LPAM without construction permit when? ;D I can't justify paying $300+ for a Part 15 legal station that won't get to the end of my yard.
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Making GMRS license by rule and increase FRS power limits from 0.5 watts to 2 watts makes a lot of sense to me. Since the vast vast majority of GMRS simplex operations is unlicensed anyway (I mean where can you find a 14 channel FRS only radio these days - you're basically forced to buy a 22 channel one that also covers GMRS and transmits higher-than-legal power on FRS channels 1-7...the FRS channels currently shared with GMRS).
Just like moving 154.570 and 154.600 MHz (two heavily bootlegged business frequencies) into the unlicensed MURS service made a whole lot of sense...making simplex GMRS license free (by moving its power levels and the 8 "GMRS only" channels, channels 15-22, to the FRS service).
Moving GMRS to its own service (and making it so you can't sell "combination" radios) also makes sense. Keep licensed GMRS repeaters on the air, but make simplex operations on the 22 channels legal, in this case, by moving them to FRS and increasing the maximum output power. You know it won't be long before Motorola starts selling a "30 channel FRS radio" that's really a GMRS radio with repeater capability. That, or they'll simply re-do the packaging on their 22 channel radios as "new FRS" or something like that. I think GMRS/FRS will eventually go the way of the UHF CB service in Australia. Simplex and repeater operations are licensed by rule (no license required for individual users) but actually owning and setting up a repeater requires registration and a license of some sort.
I also like the idea of combining FRS and Part 15 equipment and allowing data transmission on FRS frequencies.
In regards to the skip legislation...that's about 20 years late. I don't think that rule was ever followed. By anyone. Pretty much impossible to enforce. I agree with other posters too. Increase carrier power limits to that of 10-15 watts. The noise floor is a lot higher than it was 40 years ago. Truckers aren't using 4 watt radios (even if they're using 4 watt radios they've been peaked and tuned [shudders] to get more power out of them) because 4 watts doesn't cut it anymore unless you're way out in the country and using a perfect antenna (neither of these conditions are easily met nowadays). Follow what countries like Austria, Brazil and Germany have done. Make CB 80 or even 120 channels and increase power levels to that of an "export radio" (10 watts AM carrier power, 25 watts SSB PEP). Make the "high band" (in the case of Brazil - 27.415-27.855 MHz) channels 41-80 or make the "low band" - 26.515-26.955 MHz (in the case of Germany, Austria, and several other places) channels 41-80.
The majority of legal users of land mobile/business radio service in the 27.41 - 28 MHz range left a long long time ago. I don't think there ever were Part 90 users in the 26-26.96 MHz range, theres military/government stuff there (or there was) but the first allocations that are still used that I can think of don't happen until you get down into the IFB/STL frequencies 25.87-26.03 MHz or whatever the allocation is...with only 25.91, 25.95 and 25.99 seeing any real use.
Even if CB remained AM/SSB only, it would be a big step to increase legal power levels a marginal amount.
RST111. I live in an urban area that is bordered on its southwest side by an area that is suburban for only 5 miles or so then becomes rural. There's use of CB for day to day comms on those areas (and there's the circus...they're on different channels of course). Even the guys using radios for day-to-day comms are higher-than-legal power and access to out of band channels. They usually stay within band unless they want a "private" channel, but even for day-to-day comms they're running the de facto standard "25 watt export radio" or 100 watt HF ham radio.
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As I recall, one rationale for the anti-skip rule was that the phone companies did not want CB radio competing with their profitable long-distance calling services. Of course, that makes no sense nowadays.
CB was not originally conceived as a "hobby" radio service. It was more or less intended as a less formal or less regulated alternative to business band radio. In fact the original rules restricted most channels to communications only with units operating under the same license, with only 7 of the 23 channels available for communications with other licensees.
I think there have been at least three different maximum range regulations for CB over the years.
Propagation, and how history played into the understanding of it :
Frequencies above 20 MHz were in use before WW II, but not very much. Hams had 10 meters (and 5, 2.5, and 1.25 meters), however there were relatively few hams using that band, this was more the realm of experimentation rather than communications. The use of these freqs was just starting to take off when the War started to put the brakes on civilian use of them. The war caused rapid expansion in these freqs, but generally for specific and intentionally short ranged operations. In 1940 ham use of HF freqs, including 10 meters, was tightly curtailed, no contacts outside the US allowed, and in Dec 1941 all ham operations became illegal (except W1AW transmissions).
Lets keep in mind what a surprise it was that people in the US heard the German tank crews of WW II talking with each other at great distances. The Fu 5 (the primary tank-to-tank radio used by German forces) worked 22.0 to 33.3 MHz. These communications were often reported as heard in the US during North African operations, and less often during European operations...with less than complete understanding of why that was.
It is interesting that the German comms were heard more often than the American comms, since the Americans used a similar freq range (the American SCR-508 covered 20.0 to 27.9 MHz), and the US stuff ran more than twice the power of the German radios. It might be because the Germans used AM and CW, while the US stuff was only FM. But timing was important also.
The African campaign tank battles occurred between mid 1940 and mid 1943, by June of 1943 it was all over. US tank operations really peaked after D-Day, or after mid 1944 and until mid 1945. Solar cycle 17 ended in 1944. This means that the African campaign happened while Cycle 17 was active, but coming off its peak, and the European campaign started and ended while Cycle 18 was just starting.
When the war ended in late 1945 hams were allowed operations again. Hams lost 5 and 2.5 meters, but gained 6 and 2 meters.
Solar Cycle 18 (edit, I typo-ed this as 17 in my original post) peaked in 1947. 11 meters was added to the Ham allocation in 1948, but remained under used for many years. 11 meters was taken from hams and given to CB in late 1958, just as Cycle 19 peaked.
What all that comes down to is that 2 Solar Cycle peaks, 17 and 18, happened between the time people started using the area around 10 meters and before 11 meters went to CB. Hams did have 10 meters during Cycle 16, but only for part of the Cycle, and 16 was a very poor Cycle. And for one of those Cycles by wartime restriction there was almost no operations other than intentionally short ranged military comms.
When 11 meters went to CB for most of the observed operations history that band was most adequate for short range communications with occasional, and uncommon, long range openings. 11 meters made sense for a short / limited range service and the specified range limit was there to keep the use as originally intended. The same with the antenna limitations.
T!
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Solar Cycle 15 peaked in 1917
Solar Cycle 16 peaked in 1928
Solar Cycle 17 peaked in 1937
Solar Cycle 18 peaked in 1947
Solar Cycle 19 peaked in 1958
Solar Cycle 20 peaked in 1968
Solar Cycle 21 peaked in 1979
Solar Cycle 22 peaked in 1989
Solar Cycle 23 peaked in 2000
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Great history lesson, Token, thanks!
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Yeah, thanks, Token! Very interesting!
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I read in a HAM mag about US HAMs hearing panzer crews in North Africa on their often home-made gear and alerting the US gov to the fact, and how the US rushed to build listening posts (FCC RID) in various US locations where these comms could be received. The US HAMs talked with some of the crews, and each side was amazed to be able to communicate so far, but as each side were experienced radio ops they understood how it was possible. When the North African Wehrmacht radio traffic was first noted in the US, the US was still neutral and HAM radio was in full swing. Oddly enough, Hitler allowed German HAMs to continue to operate on the HAM bands during the war, but they didn't have too many other HAMs to talk to since many nations restricted HAM radio to internal defense networks only. In the US this service was War Emergency Radio Service (WERS) and was related to air raid and natural disaster relief for the duration.
Oddly enough, the US and allies only restricted citizens descended of enemy nationals from using short wave receivers, not the population at large and many US citizens actively sought out enemy broadcasts to gather info on captured US service members who were often mentioned in such broadcasts for propaganda purposes. Then the listener would write a letter to the family of that service member and relate the enemy broadcast details.
In axis nations, listening to enemy broadcasts was punishable by prison or death, and I have a copy on pdf of a ww2 German HAM magazine that lists some of those who were caught and sentenced to prison for listening to the enemy, as well as those arrested for swartzsenden, radio piracy.
Related info;
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol4no2/html/v04i2a05p_0001.htm
http://ac6v.com/history.htm
http://fccrid.org/
http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/the-fccs-rid-and-japans-surrender/
http://www.arrl.org/news/surfin-emergency-radio-service-during-the-war
https://www.ushmm.org/online/film/display/detail.php?file_num=4969
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As long as the topic is shifting to WW2 and HF radio, the recent Pulitzer Prize winning novel "All The Light We Cannot See" by Anthony Doer very much revolves around radio use during the war, and even features what we would consider pirate broadcasts. It's a terrific novel and I recommend it to anyone looking for a good read. I won't go into more detail because I firmly believe that the less you know about a book or movie, the more rewarding it is to experience, as long as it's good. It just came out in paperback.
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I read in a HAM mag about US HAMs hearing panzer crews in North Africa on their often home-made gear and alerting the US gov to the fact, and how the US rushed to build listening posts (FCC RID) in various US locations where these comms could be received. The US HAMs talked with some of the crews, and each side was amazed to be able to communicate so far, but as each side were experienced radio ops they understood how it was possible. When the North African Wehrmacht radio traffic was first noted in the US, the US was still neutral and HAM radio was in full swing.
Do you have a reference to the part I put in bold?
The North Africa campaign started in mid June, 1940, however German tanks, and their universal use of radio equipment (and the source of most of the receptions I have read about), were not active there until after the Italians requested help, in late 1940. Most of the Italian M 11/39 and M 13/40 tanks did not carry transceiver gear, the ones that did (often only the command tanks) used the Magneti Marelli RF1CA and later 2CA. The 1CA did cover the right frequency range.
By late 1940, or even mid June of 1940 (at the start of hostilities in Africa), despite the US being officially neutral, the restrictions on hams were in place to NOT communicate with anyone outside the US. Anyone admitting to talking with these tank crews would be in violation. I have heard claims that this happened, but always it has been a case of "this guy told me that some of them did it" with no documented or contemporary sourced references.
Most of the accounts of hearing Africa Corps communications in the US that I have read were stated as being in 1942 and on the US east coast. By that time the "no ham transmission" restrictions were in place.
And yes, the Germans did allow some ham radio operations during WW II inside Germany. Operation inside occupied countries was not allowed. Inside Germany all ham operations were ordered halted, and licenses rescinded, with the invasion of Poland in September of 1939.
In early 1940, possibly as part of a "sustainment of normalcy" effort, Germany started relicensing a limited number of stations. By mid year 1940 about a dozen ham stations were licensed in Germany. It appears that at no time during the war did the number of legal ham stations in Germany exceed 200, and for the majority of the conflict the number was under 100. I suspect the people allowed operation were deemed dependable to the administration, however little can be found on the selection process. Also it is possible that everyone, hams and "legal" SWLs, may have been required to keep 2 logs, and send one of them to authorities periodically for analysis. I have seen indications of this requirement, but no one has been able to show me what German regulation stated it.
It is worth noting that the Brits allowed some hams to be active during the later stages of the conflict, and there are reported (but not well documented) cases of British hams in QSO with German hams.
Oddly enough, the US and allies only restricted citizens descended of enemy nationals from using short wave receivers, not the population at large and many US citizens actively sought out enemy broadcasts to gather info on captured US service members who were often mentioned in such broadcasts for propaganda purposes. Then the listener would write a letter to the family of that service member and relate the enemy broadcast details.
I do not think the US restricted citizens descended of enemy nationals from using short wave receivers. The US restricted foreign nationals (not citizens of the US) in country from such use (via Presidential Proclamation 2525, ss Regulations, 5(f), 2526, and 2527), but not US cits descended of those nations. 2525 addressed Japanese, 2526 addressed Germans, and 2527 addressed Italians. Lets keep in mind how many millions of first generations Americans in 1940 were descended of German and Italian stock or even naturalized US citizens from those countries.
Because of the bias of the time, both caused by the attack on Pearl Harbor and existing racial issues, these regulations were also applied to some US citizens of Japanese descent, however this was a overstepping of authority (the proclamations were specific to aliens, not US cits).
This is not to be confused with Executive Orders 9066 and 9102, these orders did not restrict radio use, but did allow for the internment of US citizens of Japanese, German, or Italian descent. Only a very small fraction of German and Italian descended US citizens were impacted by these events, while a large percentage of US citizens of Japanese descent were affected.
T!
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Do you have a reference to the part I put in bold?
It was in the late 80s or 90s, qst, popcom, or 73 or similar.
I kinda remember it was the son who found the German radio comms and pointed it out to his dad and they apparently understood at least some German and broke in on the ongoing comms, whether this was allowed by the fedz or not at the time. They reported this to US officials and the officials moved quickly to begin monitoring for themselves in a nearby location. The east coast is where it all started but there were other places in the US that reported similar events.
The Germans allowed wartime HAM operation for propaganda purposes trying to imply they were a free society, and only by faithful party members as you noted, however they were allowed to communicate with other HAMs around the world as far as I know.
The German and Italian aliens and their families in the US had to disable their sets that could rx shortwave, there was a regulation for this and the US gov paid radio repairmen to do this and keep records of the work. The Japanese in the internment camps were likewise allowed ambc radios but not sw sets, the FCC even monitored the camps for transmitters, wich were verboten. There were so many German and Italian descendants in the US as you stated, with many of them being drafted to fight their relatives, it was decided that it would take too many camps to hold them all. Add this to the solidarity of many Japanese, mostly the older generation living in California and Hawaii, with Japan and its government and you can see why they interned Japanese and not Italians and Germans. Some antique radio restorers come across sets that have been neutered by the removal of shortwave bands, to include paperwork denoting the date and the technician as well as the owner.
back on topic; I want legal digital dx modes for my cb radio!
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Add this to the solidarity of many Japanese, mostly the older generation living in California and Hawaii, with Japan and its government and you can see why they interned Japanese and not Italians and Germans.
A thorough review of the situation found virtually no such solidarity. Likewise, neither has any decent independent historic research.
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Do you have a reference to the part I put in bold?
It was in the late 80s or 90s, qst, popcom, or 73 or similar.
I kinda remember it was the son who found the German radio comms and pointed it out to his dad and they apparently understood at least some German and broke in on the ongoing comms, whether this was allowed by the fedz or not at the time. They reported this to US officials and the officials moved quickly to begin monitoring for themselves in a nearby location. The east coast is where it all started but there were other places in the US that reported similar events.
Yes, I have read similar magazine articles going back to the 50’s. The receive side of the story is pretty well documented, however when it comes to the “transmit back” part of the story it is always fuzzy or word of mouth and as far as I know there is no documentation to support it actually happened.
It makes for a good story, but it is questionable, at best.
The German and Italian aliens and their families in the US had to disable their sets that could rx shortwave, there was a regulation for this and the US gov paid radio repairmen to do this and keep records of the work. The Japanese in the internment camps were likewise allowed ambc radios but not sw sets, the FCC even monitored the camps for transmitters, wich were verboten.
Yes, resident aliens were not allowed SW receivers, that was part of orders 2525, 2526, and 2527. But this did not apply to US citizens of enemy nation descent.
The man who got me into radio in the 1960’s was an Italian born great uncle, he came over on the same ship as my great grandmothers family in 1908 (that part of our family was Ukrainian) and eventually married my great grandmothers sister. He became a US citizen (I think by virtue of military service) however his father never did. He got his ham license in 1935. He often told me stories of radio operations before, during, and after WW II (he did not serve in WW II, he was too old by then, his service was in WW I and after). One of the things he told me about was the fact that his father (a radio listener, but not a ham) could NOT have an SW receiver during the war, but he himself, as a US citizen, could. Within the Italian community where they lived the same thing happened, some folks (not US citizens) were prohibited, while their brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, etc, that were US citizens were not as long as they had separate residences.
There were so many German and Italian descendants in the US as you stated, with many of them being drafted to fight their relatives, it was decided that it would take too many camps to hold them all.
I think there is quite a bit more to this than just it would have taken too many camps.
Less than 2,000 Italians or Italian-Americans ended up in WRA camps during the war, less than 12,000 Germans or German-Americans. In both cases the vast majority of the internees were foreign nationals, not US citizens by naturalization or by birth. Under 14,000 total interned, but between the two nationalities there were over 7 million immigrants or first generation US born Americans in the US.
Over 110,000 Japanese or Japanese-Americans were in the camps, with over 60% of them being US citizens, either naturalized or by birth in the US. And there were only about 127,000 total Japanese or US born Japanese-Americans in the continental US at the time. Why were so many of them US citizens? Because essentially no Japanese were allowed to immigrate to the US from 1924 on (Immigration Act of 1924) and few were allowed to enter the country after 1908. So on the eve of WW II every person of Japanese lineage in the US under the age of 17, and most under the age of 33, were US born US citizens.
All of the interned Italians or Germans would have fit in a single camp used to hold Japanese (the Tule Lake camp held over 18,000 Japanese), and there were 10 camps of Japanese.
The fact is the US public would not have put up with mass internment of Italian and German Americans, it would have been extremely unpopular. Everyone knew someone of those backgrounds. These were your neighbors, your friends, popular actors, sports figures, etc. Not so the Japanese, they were few in number and almost all located in a few areas along the west coast. Relatively few Americans interacted with people of Japanese descent on a regular basis.
back on topic; I want legal digital dx modes for my cb radio!
With only 40 channelized frequency selections that might be fun, but not a great idea unless specific channels were set aside by regulation for those kinds of modes.
T!
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Excellent history lesson Token! BTW, I sure do miss your Perseus receiver being online 8)
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If only they would expand the 11 meter bandwidth now. DX on the legal 1-40 is horrible. Too many morons on AM or LSB using a KW to talk to their neighbor down the street. Need to expand the band to 27.800 in my opinion ; )