HFU HF Underground
General Category => General Radio Discussion => Topic started by: ThaDood on May 10, 2019, 1743 UTC
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Boomer found this one on the proposal of making the AM broadcast band in the USA all digital. https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/business-and-law/few-broadcasters-show-interest Yeah, the idea doesn't excite me either.
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His biggest concern for the future of AM radio is the electric car. “A few manufacturers have already eliminated AM radios from their electric car models, and several more have made it clear they will not have AM radios in their future models,” he said.
“We have been told the cost to filter the interference to AM radio from the car gets into the hundreds of dollars per car,” Cooney said.
So mobile operation on the 160-meter band in a Tesla might not be too fun.
Just wondering if they have permission to spew all this electronic garbage.
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Just wondering if they have permission to spew all this electronic garbage.
There is a all digital test station nearby in Frederick MD on 820 kHz. It spews so much junk that it completely blocks 810 and 830. There was a post in a Facebook AM radio group from one of the guys behind it, talking about how wonderful it was and how it doesn't cause interference. I posted some waterfalls showing it, and they completely ignored it. They're sold on the technology to "save" AM, and don't care about reality.
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Yeah... Somehow, if All-AM-Digital was to become a reality, like it did in HDTV, (I still miss analog TV.), I don't see a D/A converter RX'ing digital signal, then re-TX'ing it on an analog FREQ. (Hi-hi...) Albeit, they kind of did with satellite radio going to Part #15 FM TX's. Give me AM Wide!!!
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Just wondering if they have permission to spew all this electronic garbage.
There is a all digital test station nearby in Frederick MD on 820 kHz. It spews so much junk that it completely blocks 810 and 830. There was a post in a Facebook AM radio group from one of the guys behind it, talking about how wonderful it was and how it doesn't cause interference. I posted some waterfalls showing it, and they completely ignored it. They're sold on the technology to "save" AM, and don't care about reality.
Just imagine the mess when dx starts rolling in.
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Just wondering if they have permission to spew all this electronic garbage.
There is a all digital test station nearby in Frederick MD on 820 kHz. It spews so much junk that it completely blocks 810 and 830. There was a post in a Facebook AM radio group from one of the guys behind it, talking about how wonderful it was and how it doesn't cause interference. I posted some waterfalls showing it, and they completely ignored it. They're sold on the technology to "save" AM, and don't care about reality.
Fair enough but I was referring to spewing electronic noise inside and in the proximity of an electric car.
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Most of what's on the AMBCB should not even be listened too, fix that first!
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I’ve looked at the spectrum of the 820 kHz all digital station many times on SDR receivers here in Northern VA, and the energy is pretty well contained within +/- 5 kHz of center frequency. It actually looks better than many analogue AM stations as far as not interfering with adjacent frequencies.
You need to look at the required FCC spectral mask. As I recall, energy on adjacent frequency slots has to be 25 dB below carrier power. If you have a 10,000 watt station, it could have almost 30 watts of energy on adjacent channels and still be legal. If you live close to a station, it could certainly seem “wide”. We have a local station here that seems “wide” but I hesitate to make that claim because even at 15 miles away, I might be seeing legal power levels.
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Here's a waterfall I just took a few minutes ago of 820 kHz. It falls within the required 25 dB below carrier power, but still causes considerable damage to adjacent channels. I understand the desire to make MW more appealing to the masses, but have a difficult time accepting this as progress :)
(https://i.imgur.com/3K5K8Da.jpg)
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Not as wide as the hybrid mode but looks like it would still interfere with the adjacent channels.
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How does a digital signal sound? We've had some around here in the usual hybrid mode (AM + IBOC) and the digital stream sounds horrible- worse than a 1990's dial-up Internet stream. Assuming it can hold the lock.
On FM on HD1, it sounds fine. On HD2+, it sounds rather lacking.
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Most of what's on the AMBCB should not even be listened too, fix that first!
This.
audio quality dosent matter if nobody listens to you.
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The bit rate is identical for both hybrid and digital only modes, as such audio quality will be the same (I believe...could be wrong). There was a big Hoopla at NAB this year in the Nautel Users Group as for the first time transmitted album art over one of the HD only AM's.....big deal. People are going to keep beating the drum for HD as long as someone is padding pockets to do so. On the AM side, even amongst supporters, interest is waning. It just doesn't work well, and the installed receiver base even after 15 years just isn't there. FM HD is doing well largely due to the translator boom, and the HD power increase now allowed by the FCC.
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The bit rate is identical for both hybrid and digital only modes, as such audio quality will be the same (I believe...could be wrong). There was a big Hoopla at NAB this year in the Nautel Users Group as for the first time transmitted album art over one of the HD only AM's.....big deal. People are going to keep beating the drum for HD as long as someone is padding pockets to do so. On the AM side, even amongst supporters, interest is waning. It just doesn't work well, and the installed receiver base even after 15 years just isn't there. FM HD is doing well largely due to the translator boom, and the HD power increase now allowed by the FCC.
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Good point. Most of the HD FM listeners, especially what I would consider your usual consumer or casual FM listeners, are listening to analog FM translators of FM HD radio subchannels. In urban areas, the translators take on a life of their own and appear to most listeners as their own radio station. The FM band where I live is a lot more crowded with all the HD translators. I have a feeling most folks wouldn't listen to the -HD2 sub-channels if they weren't repeated on analog FM however.
Shame about the electric cars removing AM receivers. Doesn't the all-channel receiver act come into play here? Maybe not. FM only car radios? Several friends of mine (who are big sports fans) listen to AM stations almost exclusively for sports coverage. One of them regularly makes a 100+ mile drive and likes to listen to The Nationals baseball on AM radio. Once I explained how skywave works, he actually tries to take drives at night so he can listen to Nationals games on WRVA on 1140 kHz or WFED on 1500 kHz all the way back and forth on these long drives. Of course, daytime coverage of those two powerhouse stations is also excellent, but at night he can simply pick which one and not have to touch the dial for the whole trip, basically all the way across Virginia.
Significant portions of these drives are through rural areas with limited cellular coverage and limited local radio stations in both the AM and FM bands, especially when it comes to sports stations.
There are still folks who listen to clear-channel AM stations in their secondary/skywave service area. What's going to happen if the mediumwave broadcast band goes 100% digital?
At least some of these listeners will probably stream the audio on their smartphones using 5G.
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There are still folks who listen to clear-channel AM stations in their secondary/skywave service area. What's going to happen if the mediumwave broadcast band goes 100% digital?
Skywave listening will then be a thing of the past, with very rare exceptions. I very much doubt this will happen though, as the vast majority of stations do not have the budget to drop $20-100K on gear and antenna modifications to make digital work. Add to that the lack of receiver penetration, coverage variability...it goes on and on.
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Just wondering if they have permission to spew all this electronic garbage.
There is a all digital test station nearby in Frederick MD on 820 kHz. It spews so much junk that it completely blocks 810 and 830. There was a post in a Facebook AM radio group from one of the guys behind it, talking about how wonderful it was and how it doesn't cause interference. I posted some waterfalls showing it, and they completely ignored it. They're sold on the technology to "save" AM, and don't care about reality.
With all due respect, the reality is that the AM band does not exist for us DXers. It exists for local listeners. If HD can improve that listening experience somehow, and increase the audience through better fidelity and overcome noise better -- and lengthen the life of the band, I'm all for it. If it doesn't, I'm still all for the option for those stations who feel the impulse to go digital.
My local splatterhouse on 710 wipes out 700 and 720 -- yet it is all analog. Another one on 570 makes mincemeat of 560 and 580. A station doesn't have to be HD to wipe out adjacent channels.
The fact is that the AM band is losing listeners because of fidelity reasons, the fact it is over the air and not a computer stream, and other factors (like ageout of listening demos). Religion and ethnic broadcasting -- along with various talk formats -- can only save it for so long. Eventually it will consist of a handful of HD signals mixed with a few analog holdouts, or it will be like most of the 31 meter band every evening or the 19 meter band every late afternoon -- mostly static.
Just my two cents.
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With all due respect, the reality is that the AM band does not exist for us DXers. It exists for local listeners. If HD can improve that listening experience somehow, and increase the audience through better fidelity and overcome noise better -- and lengthen the life of the band, I'm all for it. If it doesn't, I'm still all for the option for those stations who feel the impulse to go digital.
My local splatterhouse on 710 wipes out 700 and 720 -- yet it is all analog. Another one on 570 makes mincemeat of 560 and 580. A station doesn't have to be HD to wipe out adjacent channels.
The fact is that the AM band is losing listeners because of fidelity reasons, the fact it is over the air and not a computer stream, and other factors (like ageout of listening demos). Religion and ethnic broadcasting -- along with various talk formats -- can only save it for so long. Eventually it will consist of a handful of HD signals mixed with a few analog holdouts, or it will be like most of the 31 meter band every evening or the 19 meter band every late afternoon -- mostly static.
Just my two cents.
I think the AM band will remain in use for niche purposes, much like shortwave broadcasting does now, at least in the parts of the world with relatively uncensored Internet access. I'm in my early 30s and my peers do listen to AM but only for the reasons I discussed previously (because sports broadcasts are on AM stations, and they spend a lot of time in the car). I've also pressed the importance of programming the other receivable [regional, in my case, East Coast flamethrowers, mostly out of New York, Baltimore and DC] clear-channel AM stations into the car radio as presets in the event of a local (or regional) emergency/disaster and knockout of traditional/local communications to them. Other than that, its local FM radio or streaming via cellular data or at home on WiFi when you want to "listen to the radio". I know the rollout of 5G and improved 4G coverage in rural areas and a move to smart phone based online audio streaming will probably take another bite out of that listener group sooner rather than later, however.
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All digital on AM will be it's death blow. As a retired AM DJ and engineer, I got out of broadcasting just before the HD craze began. AM band's woes are mostly "lack of compelling content" and second, fidelity. However, I think most people on here would rather have lower fidelity if there was something WORTH hearing to begin with.
All digital would require people to replace AM radios with digital models. Trust me, people do not have the money to do this anymore. If AM ceases to work, they simply will find other sources for that content before they spend money on a "hey, this sounds like a good idea" thing.
Until the iHates and Cume-U-Less Medias of the country break apart and stations go back to local ownership (I have hope, that's about it) the "garbage in, heavily distorted garbage out" scenario will continue until the towers fail from lack of maintenance.
For those stations who continue to support HD on AM, someone here nailed it... they ignore reality. They are probably flat-earthers as well!
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The flat earthers are coming to WBCQ 9330 with 500KW 24/7 in about a month.
When are they going to start giving away radios that only get 9330?
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Most of what's on the AMBCB should not even be listened too, fix that first!
It's enough to make one start chasing faint signals from vast distances...
AM band's woes are mostly "lack of compelling content" and second, fidelity. However, I think most people on here would rather have lower fidelity if there was something WORTH hearing to begin with.
The other night I was using muffled bandpass filtering and fighting through severe lighting hash in order to enjoy reruns of Art Bell, because I find this three hours of AM programming per week more interesting than anything else I've found by orders of magnitude.
The flat earthers are coming to WBCQ 9330 with 500KW 24/7 in about a month.
Anyone else here wonder which intelligence agency is funding this loudspeaker?
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Just wondering if they have permission to spew all this electronic garbage.
There is a all digital test station nearby in Frederick MD on 820 kHz. It spews so much junk that it completely blocks 810 and 830. There was a post in a Facebook AM radio group from one of the guys behind it, talking about how wonderful it was and how it doesn't cause interference. I posted some waterfalls showing it, and they completely ignored it. They're sold on the technology to "save" AM, and don't care about reality.
These are the same guys that thought Chicago's WCFL AM Stereo was a good idea. Then when that collapsed, they stayed in their den 24 hours a day, sitting with precision amidst 4 tower speakers trying to maximize their QUADRAPHONIC experience,
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All digital on AM will be it's death blow. As a retired AM DJ and engineer, I got out of broadcasting just before the HD craze began. AM band's woes are mostly "lack of compelling content" and second, fidelity. However, I think most people on here would rather have lower fidelity if there was something WORTH hearing to begin with.
All digital would require people to replace AM radios with digital models. Trust me, people do not have the money to do this anymore. If AM ceases to work, they simply will find other sources for that content before they spend money on a "hey, this sounds like a good idea" thing.
Until the iHates and Cume-U-Less Medias of the country break apart and stations go back to local ownership (I have hope, that's about it) the "garbage in, heavily distorted garbage out" scenario will continue until the towers fail from lack of maintenance.
For those stations who continue to support HD on AM, someone here nailed it... they ignore reality. They are probably flat-earthers as well!
I also worked in the industry before and after HD was introduced. The problem with AM is that FM replaced it as a primary medium for younger (in the 70's-80's-90's) listeners, because it was clearer, and had stereo. Then in the 00's and 10's you had the RFI problem plaguing AM, which didn't help.
Your average listener is not going to tune to a noise-wracked band even if it has "compelling" programming.
As for big radio companies, they are keeping AM on the air in many places, by putting talk on them, brokering programming, etc. If the big conglomerates hadn't proliferated after dereg, a lot of AM's would be off the air already. WABC, KABC are prime examples. Their audiences aged out, and they are only on the air because they are owned by conglomerates that presently are running whatever on them until they decide to sell them.
But who is going to buy a 50KW station with no listeners and tons of overhead? There are stations for sale on the market right now with no takers. Outside of very small markets, the era of the mom and pop radio station owner are gone.
All digital will work if only because of car radios. HD AM is in about one third of the new cars with radios. HD AM may fill certain niches that aren't available on FM because of an overloaded FM band -- religious and ethnic programming probably.
People can afford HD radios more than in the 00's when HD was introduced. Sangean sells them for less than $100. If a consumer can afford over $100 for a smartphone or video game console, they can certainly afford an HD radio.
One problem with new radios is that OTA radio itself is heading more and more online. The days of OTA radio, FM as well as AM, HD or not, are numbered. Maybe we have 30 years left.
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I also worked in the industry before and after HD was introduced. The problem with AM is that FM replaced it as a primary medium for younger (in the 70's-80's-90's) listeners, because it was clearer, and had stereo. Then in the 00's and 10's you had the RFI problem plaguing AM, which didn't help.
Your average listener is not going to tune to a noise-wracked band even if it has "compelling" programming.
As for big radio companies, they are keeping AM on the air in many places, by putting talk on them, brokering programming, etc. If the big conglomerates hadn't proliferated after dereg, a lot of AM's would be off the air already. WABC, KABC are prime examples. Their audiences aged out, and they are only on the air because they are owned by conglomerates that presently are running whatever on them until they decide to sell them.
But who is going to buy a 50KW station with no listeners and tons of overhead? There are stations for sale on the market right now with no takers. Outside of very small markets, the era of the mom and pop radio station owner are gone.
All digital will work if only because of car radios. HD AM is in about one third of the new cars with radios. HD AM may fill certain niches that aren't available on FM because of an overloaded FM band -- religious and ethnic programming probably.
People can afford HD radios more than in the 00's when HD was introduced. Sangean sells them for less than $100. If a consumer can afford over $100 for a smartphone or video game console, they can certainly afford an HD radio.
One problem with new radios is that OTA radio itself is heading more and more online. The days of OTA radio, FM as well as AM, HD or not, are numbered. Maybe we have 30 years left.
At least in the (medium-sized urban) market I live in, AM is a mixed bag of talk radio, news, religious programming (although there's a lot of that on the FM band as well), several sports radio stations and ethnic programming. Some of the ethnic stations are slowly migrating to FM via translators (or just moving to the dual-band model) while others are staying with AM. Sports radio is basically only on AM. However, you do make a good point, BoomboxDX....a lot of radio content is now being streamed via Internet and cellular networks instead. I'm in my early 30s and as I mentioned before, the only reason my peers even really are familiar with AM broadcasting is because of sports radio (local and skywave) being on AM. The only reason my friends know about skywave sports availability is I was there to give them lessons in "AM radio's best kept secret" - the ability to listen to distant stations at night, including a given sport's team's 50,000 watt flagship station.
Eventually they'll sell off the 500 MHz band and that will go to 6G or whatever generation of mobile networks we're on at that point. Over the air radio (and television) will eventually go away, if things keep going in the current direction.