HFU HF Underground
Technical Topics => Equipment => Topic started by: alpard on June 02, 2020, 2048 UTC
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Hi All
I am trying to do some MW and LW DX at nights.
Right now, I am using a Sangean ATS-803 and Realistic DX-392.
I wonder if there are better MW and LW DX radios out there.
Thanks
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Take a look at various ham transceivers with general coverage receive capability. Lots to choose from new and used and most all nowadays have general coverage receive capability.
If your main interest is MW and LW DX, pay particular attention to the sensitivity specs for those bands. Many of these radios are intentionally
desensitized below the 160 meter ham band to avoid receiver overload from powerful AM broadcast band stations. Many are practically deaf
on longwave. The Alinco DX-SR8 has worked out well for me doing LW DXing. It is very sensitive in the CW mode on LW. On long winter nights
when conditions are just right and the band becomes perfectly quiet you want all the sensitivity you can get to be able to hear a 25 watt NDB a
couple thousand miles away. Almost as important if not more so is the antenna. All kinds of choices here from simple to quite exotic...
longwires, loops, ferrite sleeve, Beverage, KAZ, flag, K9AY, active, and on and on.
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Many people are very satisfied with Tecsun radio's!
Check out
https://www.tecsunradios.com.au/store/ (https://www.tecsunradios.com.au/store/)
It also depends where and what you wanna RX !
Goodluck!
André
CoolAM Radio - Shortwave
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I watched youtube videos and also read some SWL blogs on the review of the Tecsun radios. The problem they highlighted was poor performance on MW and LW bands with the TECSUN radios. They seem very good on SW HF bands, but on MW and LW, they couldn't hear any DX stations, the reviewers and bloggers said. Especially the TECSUN S-8800 and PL-660 were poor on MW and LW.
Not sure, if these reviews are true, not having used any Tecsun radios myself. But it alerted me that I must be cautious and selective on what I am buying.
With HF and SW bands having gone mute for years due to the Sun spot minima cycle, MW and LW bands are important for DXing, and I am sure many good and interesting DX to be had in those bands.
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More down to the antenna than the radio.
The Tecsun and many others are true SDR and way better than any of the older superhet designs.
Str.
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This is one of the the review on the Tecsun radios, pointing out poor performance on MW and LW. I think there are also similar reviews of concern on the Tecsun PL-660 and other models.
The reviewer seems equipped with many of the best antenna on the market for reception such as expensive Wellbrook and KAZ and many others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPcz2JpUTJc
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Most portables just aren't going to hack it on LW for any sort of serious DXing. Mostly they have no provision for an antenna other than the built in ferrite loopstick. You may be able to fabricate some sort of an inductive coupled arrangement to transfer energy to the loopstick and greatly enhance reception but then you will be confronted with the inherent lack of selectivity found in
most portables. Selectivity (filtering) is what costs money and most portables are relatively inexpensive and the selectivity just isn't there.
However, for MW work, there are some portables that are outstanding AM broadcast band DX machines. The CCrane Radios 2E and EP come to mind as well as the GE Superadios.
These portables all have provision for an external antenna but in most cases you won't need one... their large internal loopsticks are that good. They also can be easily rotated to peak/null
desired/undesired stations.
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Thanks for your recommendation with the info.
Unfortunately CCraine radios are not available to buy in where we are. And if there were available to buy, they seem more expensive than usual market price.
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Why not order from another country then?
And.. what is yours if I may ask?
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André
CoolAM Radio - Shortwave
the Netherlands
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RSP1A or better and don't look back.
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Why not order from another country then?
And.. what is yours if I may ask?
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André
CoolAM Radio - Shortwave
the Netherlands
It makes more expensive and takes longer to arrive when ordered from other countries sellers.
And if something goes wrong, then it is more difficult and complicated to put it right.
We try to avoid buying from overseas due to above reasons.
And most importantly, I am not sure if those radios are really good or not just by reading about them, it is difficult to know.
But still it is good to have some ideas about them, what is available out there, and who know next month, they could be for sale from the local suppliers for cheaper price, and with next day delivery. :)
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If you can find a used older Palstar R30 in good shape it will perform well at least for MW.
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The Sangean ATS-803A is certainly one of the better, more sensitive, portables to have for LW and MW DX'ing. I still use mine to DX MW at times. However, when I put that portable to my Windom, I can get IMD from local stations and very strong 90M SW. You may want to consider a preselector to help improve what you already have. https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3912
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The Sangean ATS-803A is certainly one of the better, more sensitive, portables to have for LW and MW DX'ing. I still use mine to DX MW at times. However, when I put that portable to my Windom, I can get IMD from local stations and very strong 90M SW. You may want to consider a preselector to help improve what you already have. https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3912
Sangean 803A is very good on HF bands, but I was not sure if it will be good enough for DXing on MW and LW. I have not tried it yet.
Good idea on the preselectors and ATUs, but again I am not sure if they will be effective on MW and LW bands. I know they work well on HF bands.
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If you can find a used older Palstar R30 in good shape it will perform well at least for MW.
I have seen Palstar R30 for sale on local eBay, but asking price was very high. It seems very rare receiver.
I would only consider older radios if the price is good, in case they might need servicing or repair.
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Is it maybe an idea - to buy - a cheap - old "vintage" tube radio
and do some adjustments to make it a good receiver on MW ?
(Service Manuals are for 99% of most known brands available Online!)
These oldies mostly have great RX on MW !
(http://www.coolam.nl/grundig3060.jpg)
André
CoolAM Radio - Shortwave
the Netherlands
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Check out also this website :
http://wundr-shop.com/search/radio+world+receivers (http://wundr-shop.com/search/radio+world+receivers)
Maybe you'll find some item of your interest!
André
CoolAM Radio - Shortwave
the Netherlands
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Thanks for the suggestion and links to eBay.
I noticed the Radio Shack 392 is exactly same as my Realistic DX-392.
It is a good receiver. But I think Sangean ATS-803A is a little better.
They are very similar in performance.
From the eBay listing, they look all more or less the same.
Nothing really stood out.
But I have found the best MW / LW DX radio.
It is a vintage Hitachi DF radio with huge rotatable loop antenna on the top.
It has also RF gain / attenuator and BFO.
The BFO is not very efficient for normal SSB and CW reception, but I think that they are added for receiving beacons in the sea from the ships.
Anyhow, I just got hold of the Hitachi Radio, and found out that it is the most sensitive and capable MW/LW receiver for DXing from what I have had. Maybe there might be other more excellent MW LW DXing Radios. If you know one, or own one, please list them here in this thread.
It is quite handy to rotate the loop on the radio for the signal you want to receive on the band, because most of the MW signals are directional.
You don't need to rotate the actual radio to receive the weak signals off directions.
But most of all, the receiver must had been tuned most sensitive and selective for the MW / LW bands.
FM is also very impressive in reception capability on this set.
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Nice that you've found one!
But maybe you'll check the following site also!
https://www.retekess.com/categories/FM-Radio (https://www.retekess.com/categories/FM-Radio)
(link says "FM-Radio" but also MW/LW/SW available!)
Which Hitachi model is your favourite? Is it the KH-1170E model?
(https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2018/1/4/9/4/9/949c3c96-6e55-408c-ba4e-e2a967b2fd76.jpg)
or maybe the WH-1160 ?
(https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2019/3/6/8/9/5/89504264-4f08-4e65-8d12-d652c6242b45.jpg)
Anyway goodluck with the item!
André
CoolAM Radio - Shortwave
the Netherlands
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Yes, they are the ones.
I have both, and I like them both equally. They are both excellent on MW / LW.
The 2nd one is a real vintage from 1960s I think, but has no FM.
The 1st one has FM, which is also super sensitive.
I love the nice circular shaped S meter. It is very functional.
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Still have the neat reads from Radio Jay Allen, https://radiojayallen.com/ His go-to radio is still the Panasonic RF-2200. (Yeah, I want one as well.) Be aware, you can easily get lost on Radio Jay's site. To my surprise, he didn't have a Sangean ATS-803A / Realistic DX-440 portable. So, I had to fill him in about that portable. He's tried several Part #15-type transmitters as well, like the Curthbert C-QUAM AM Stereo kit. (Enjoy that!!!!) Oh... Follow up on using an MFJ-956 Preselector on your ATS-803A, I believe that it's spec'ed down to 150kHz. So, should be good for LW and MW.
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Thanks for the info on MFJ - 956 preselector, and also the link to JayAllen's site.
It is a very interesting site, and has good info on SWL radios I think.
His shelf is filled with radios I could see in the photo.
I couldn't believe that he has no Sangean ATS-803A either, because 803A has been very popular radio for SWLs for years and years, and it still is sought after radio in used / 2nd hand radio markets.
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Your 803A is a good MW receiver... You just need an external loop antenna to boost signals to the radio. The DX-392 is similar.
Even a very good MW radio can receive signals better with an external loop antenna.
So I would get a MW loop antenna before getting a new radio, for MW.
LW is a different issue, because there aren't many Longwave loop antennas available to buy. You would have to build one. All you need is a frame (a plastic crate will do), 30 meters of wire, and a 365 pf tuner capacitor.
Using a long-wire antenna with either the 803A and DX-392 (for Longwave) is not a terrific idea, unless you have very good static electricity protection, because the RF transistors on those two radios can zap easily from thunderstorms, or even you touching the radio's whip antenna with your hand during the winter and zapping it with static discharge.
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Your 803A is a good MW receiver... You just need an external loop antenna to boost signals to the radio. The DX-392 is similar.
Even a very good MW radio can receive signals better with an external loop antenna.
So I would get a MW loop antenna before getting a new radio, for MW.
LW is a different issue, because there aren't many Longwave loop antennas available to buy. You would have to build one. All you need is a frame (a plastic crate will do), 30 meters of wire, and a 365 pf tuner capacitor.
Using a long-wire antenna with either the 803A and DX-392 (for Longwave) is not a terrific idea, unless you have very good static electricity protection, because the RF transistors on those two radios can zap easily from thunderstorms, or even you touching the radio's whip antenna with your hand during the winter and zapping it with static discharge.
Great info and advice, BBDX. Yes, I am trying to get an active loop antenna. It is likely to be the MLA30, but I am also looking into other options too such as getting a better RF Amp, and making the loop element by myself etc.
Yeah, I read about the RF transistor zapped on the DX-440 type radios by static. When I got the Sangean and the DX-392, I was suspecting if they were zapped, because they sounded a bit deaf on HF. But it was very poor condition on HF bands. When the evening came, they came back to life thankfully. In fact, I found them very sensitive on HF on side by side comparison with other radios. But on MW / LW I wasn't sure, as I haven't tried with these radios yet.
I will need some active loop antenna for them sooner than later for MW and LW reception.
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Even a passive loop will work on MW (and LW). I use a plastic crate that is about one foot square (33 meters, roughly), and it has 110 turns of wire around it, with a 365 pf tuner capacitor to tune it. For LW, one would add more wire. I forget how long a piece of wire it would take -- maybe 30-40 meters of wire, and you cut to fit maybe?
They're easy enough to make if you have the tuner capacitor and wire.
My crate loop boosts any of my MW radios by at least 2 db or more.
Edited to ADD: it's 33 meters, NOT .33 meters, as the original post stated. The ".33 meters" was a typo. Woops.
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Great idea and info thanks !!
Yes, I think it will work, and easy enough to make one.
I am planning to make one for my radios MW DXing.
What I have is a 30-40 cm long square plastic box.
I will wind thin wire around it trying to get the right length to cover the MW band reception.
And I will connect the wire to a variable capacitor, and secure it all together.
I think it will work. But not sure how different from the active commercial magnetic loops with preamps.
It will be definitely better than the built in ferrite core loops in the sets for sure.
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^^^^^ Sounds like a good plan. And remember, my previous post was off in wire length... 33 meters or so of wire around the box, not .33.
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Awesome. Good luck with whatever you use. Keep us posted on what that will be, please!
Just my experience -- my best single-antenna MW catches (single as in 'not phased/combined multiple antennas') have come from *passive* loops, not active.
Good active loops are best for broadband use, where their amplification helps overcome lower signal capture, boosting signals from below MW up to 30MHz. The best of them are really fantastic antennas -- the Wellbrook 1530LNP is spectacular, with excellent signal to noise over wideband reception.
But for MW-band-only reception, I find simple passive loops are superior. Easily inductively coupled to your receiver's internal ferrite antenna (no bias T- power supply coupled down the feedline, etc.), and with no active components to amplify any signals and therefore to amplify any noise at the same time, passive loops are generally a lot quieter, cleaner. They can have sharper tuning, higher Q and better, deeper nulls, than many wideband active antennas... and are usually MUCH cheaper!
That said though, I love 'em all. They each have their place in the radio lover's toolbox. You can't go wrong having both. I mean, if I am not using larger outdoor antennas, and I am bandscanning over HF at night, I most often want my active, amplified loop... but if I'm really digging into MW DXing with a single loop, I want that loop to be *passive*, quiet and easy to move around for best noise-fighting, signal-peaking ability.
Just my needless 2 cents. ;D
Mike
N0TLD
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Thanks for your info and advice BB and Mike. They are invaluable to me.
At the end of the day, these real life info and advice what we are coming here for, to read and learn.
I still haven't managed to build MW Loop yet. I am planning to order some wire first. I was looking for some thin wire for the turns around the plastic box, but the lengths of the wires I have is not enough. And I must find a variable capacitor from the tool box too. I think that is all I need for the parts.
But I managed to buy a PALSTAR AA30 Active Antenna, and connected the random wire into it, and I was listening to XHDATA radio with it. It definitely makes huge difference in reception. I am really happy that I got the AA30, and recommend it to any HF DXing SWLs.
What it does is, it brings out weak signals from the noise and make them audible. And when the weak signals are fading or unstable, this AA30 makes it more stable to listen to. Sometimes the difference is phenomenal. Sometimes it is only marginal. If the signal is already strong, then the AA30 will not make much difference, but when the signal is weak, and when powered on, it then gives noticeable boost in the reception in most cases.
If the signal is just too weak and the QRM is too bad, then it will not be much help. But then nothing will help in that case. I am not sure if most up to date design receivers with best functions and devices and parts in their bells and whistles will do the job even without any aids, for the signals under most poor propagation situations. But on 70 usd XHDATA radio, it is not bad, the AA30 works great.
But yes, I get Mike's point where passive loop antenna works better than the active ones. I feel that any MW DX antenna must be rotable ones too. Because most of the MW signals are very much directional, my random wire simply doesn't work well even with the AA30. But even builtin ferrite core antenna works better when positioned to the direction where the signals are coming from.
I read some of your reviews on the NRD 545 535 radios on eham, and glad that I didn't buy them. They are very pricey radios, and of course they might be excellent radios, but when they develop faults, it is impossible to repair them by myself. And when they are no longer supported by even the manufacturer, what chance have we got? I am not sure if they can hear the signals that this 70 USD XHDATA cannot hear on the same antenna? I doubt it.
I once had an old NRD525, and yes it was an excellent radio. But it wasn't much different from other radios I had at the time. It was just NRD name, and nice looking and good ergonomics, and yes it received great, but so did other radios too. Anyhow, you could tell us more about your thoughts and experiences from the high end radios compared to low end or vintage radios on the performance comparisons.
Thanks & 73
Al
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The AA30 active antenna has been used for HF reception only, by the way. It is not very effective for MW band reception, due to my random wire in the garden is not rotatable. It is in fact, not workable most of the times due to the non directional random wire element.
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I still haven't managed to build MW Loop yet. I am planning to order some wire first. I was looking for some thin wire for the turns around the plastic box, but the lengths of the wires I have is not enough. And I must find a variable capacitor from the tool box too. I think that is all I need for the parts.
A discarded vacuum cleaner is a good source for enamelled copper wire (only the stator wire can be salvaged). AC motors from other appliances can do as well, but they are much more heavier to carry from the curb!
Small 'dice' variable capacitors can be found in many discarded analog radios, but usually they are not left on the curb. Try garage sales. Many clocks radios available for peanuts. If you find one in a very small set, think to use the variable capacitor without removing it from its box, just disconnect the AM gangs from the printed card to connect them to the outside big crate loop.
BTW, old radios are also an easy source for transformer cans. The 455 kHz cans are useful for MW, the 10.7 MHz cans are useful for SW. (Avoid the LO coil can for FM, not a transformer, and the core material is probably best around 100 MHz). All the cans can be rewired for best results for any needs, with very small enamelled wire from relays. Identifying the cans is easier if the radio is still working. Older small radios include much more useful parts than recent ones.
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One thing to remember is that there are still AM/MW loop antennas that you can buy here in the US for around $50 USD (the Eton AN100 is one of them). You just sit them next to a portable radio.
I have two of them and they work almost as well as the crate loop.
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A cheap and easy passive MW antenna helper for pocket radios can be made using an old loopstick antenna and a mica tuning capacitor.
It can be used to give a boost or also to null out an offending station in the wrong direction. I built a bunch of these decades ago. It's not a huge boost but often enough to pull the station out of the noise, and it is pocket friendly.
(https://i.imgur.com/HOZqjEK.jpg)
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It can be made from any old transistor radio parts. The cases have an interesting back story. This was about 1991. I had to make a trip to the dump one day, and noticed several sealed boxes freshly dumped right by the side of the road to the dump site. Stopped, got out and kicked one open and it was full of these "CB Rings", all brand new, packaged with instructions and a strip of double sided foam tape. Turns out these were some failed product from the waning days of the CB craze. (poetic, no?) I grabbed a box full.
It was a FM transmitter with a circuit board that appeared to be along the lines of Mr. Microphone circuitry, with a condenser mic. It came with a little plastic tuning tool. You would put a 9v battery in, turn it on, tune to empty FM channel, then stick the CB Ring to the bottom of your mobile CB with the mic hole over the radio speaker. Now you could listen to CB over the car stereo. Woo Hoo!
Where the heck did they come from? Oddly enough, a small world. I worked at the local radio station at the time, and asked the Gm/owner if he knew anything about that product. His face turned red and out came a string of what for him, a Baptist deacon, were the equivalent of curse words and aspersions. After he calmed down, he told me that he had bankrolled that endeavor and the guy who talked him into it had been the station "engineer" at the time, and had a bunch of the things manufactured, then quit his radio job, and skipped town with the rest of the money. They ended up in a storage building for years, then to the dump.
Great project cases though. Wish I had some today.
BTW.. Did you know that Mr. Microphone lives still today?
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Thanks for all your info & feedbacks. Great stuff !!
Yeah, I think I will be making something very very simple, something like this I have seen on Youtube.
I think you can buy one made from TECSUN, but that is about 20-30 USD. Why not make something like this which will cost less than a fiver? and works same as the bought ones. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl5t0v9guho
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Thanks for all your info & feedbacks. Great stuff !!
Yeah, I think I will be making something very very simple, something like this I have seen on Youtube.
I think you can buy one made from TECSUN, but that is about 20-30 USD. Why not make something like this which will cost less than a fiver? and works same as the bought ones. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl5t0v9guho
Because a new 365 pf tuner cap might cost as much as a factory made loop? They're getting more and more rare now, especially when most radios are digitally, and DSP tuned. Even used, 'junk' radios are getting rare at local thrift stores here where I live in the US.
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Thanks for all your info & feedbacks. Great stuff !!
Yeah, I think I will be making something very very simple, something like this I have seen on Youtube.
I think you can buy one made from TECSUN, but that is about 20-30 USD. Why not make something like this which will cost less than a fiver? and works same as the bought ones. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl5t0v9guho
Because a new 365 pf tuner cap might cost as much as a factory made loop? They're getting more and more rare now, especially when most radios are digitally, and DSP tuned. Even used, 'junk' radios are getting rare at local thrift stores here where I live in the US.
Sure, they cost quite high for what they are due to rarity. But I think I have a few of them lying in the junk box in my house loft. I must go up there and search for them. In the loft, it is dark and dusty with piles and piles of old boxes and junk. I dread going up there, but I will have to, when I have some free time. :)
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I went looking for mica variable capacitors on eBay and found a ton of them for $5 to $15.
I also found a Pirate Radio [size=78%]https://www.ebay.com/itm/PIRATE-crystal-transistor-novelty-AM-RADIO-receiver-unbuilt-KIT-treasure-toy/293561111352?hash=item44599b1338:g:RioAAOSwOddYyDRe (https://www.ebay.com/itm/PIRATE-crystal-transistor-novelty-AM-RADIO-receiver-unbuilt-KIT-treasure-toy/293561111352?hash=item44599b1338:g:RioAAOSwOddYyDRe)[/size]
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I have a tecsun pl-880, and as far as portables go, it is pretty good, but nothing in a similar price range seems to compare to selective voltmeters/selective level meters.
I have a rycom3121a that i got for less money than my tecsun which has a tuning range of 10 to 1600 KHz and a 100 Hz cw filter. there are several companies that make (or used to make) these. Rycom is probably the easiest to find, but Wandel and Goltermann, HP, Rohde&Schwarz, and a few others also made them. Price range is anywhere from 100 USD to thousands, depending on what you are looking for. Even the cheap ones will almost always outperform any common radio receiver below 500 KHz though.
Best of Luck -TeC