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General Category => General Radio Discussion => Topic started by: ChrisSmolinski on June 10, 2019, 2009 UTC

Title: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on June 10, 2019, 2009 UTC
Time to Make LORAN Great Again?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/06/09/hundreds-of-u-s-flights-canceled-as-gps-based-aircraft-navigation-system-fails/#4a6e73f3878a
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: jFarley on June 11, 2019, 0037 UTC
.--    -   ..-.
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: R4002 on June 11, 2019, 1243 UTC
Maybe somebody is regretting switching off all those NDBs.  The NDB (ADF) system and VOR systems should be kept in operation for this exact reason.

Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: Josh on June 11, 2019, 1821 UTC
Sounds like someone is trying to send a message.
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: Pigmeat on June 11, 2019, 2218 UTC
Get out the quadrant and the charts.
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: skeezix on June 12, 2019, 0352 UTC
NDBs are great and simple. It also wouldn't hurt if some of the AM broadcast stations would start being plotted on the aviation charts again.

LORAN needs to rise from the dead. Either LORAN-C or eLORAN. Fire it up, its beyond time.
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: Josh on June 12, 2019, 2256 UTC
Get out the quadrant and the charts.

LOL!
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: BoomboxDX on June 14, 2019, 0637 UTC
Sextants, charts, NDB's, LORAN -- all of the above.

There is too much dependence on just one nav technique, or process. Especially in a day when an anti-sat, EMP or cyber attack could bring it down.

Good luck bringing down every NDB, Vortac, and LORAN site in the country. Doable, sure, but it that actually happened there would be nowhere to land anyway.
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: R4002 on June 14, 2019, 1738 UTC
The NDBs wouldn't cost that much to keep in operation, I don't think.  Compared to VOR and VORTAC (and don't forget DME!) NDBs are a quick and dirty navigational tool but I would prefer to have full ILS for IFR conditions.  That's assuming a full GPS blackout or enough issues where it cannot be used for aeronautical navigation.

Never mind the fact that if the GPS system was knocked out a lot of other things we use on a daily basis would stop working...like cellular / mobile telephone networks. 
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: Pigmeat on June 14, 2019, 1828 UTC
Never mind the fact that if the GPS system was knocked out a lot of other things we use on a daily basis would stop working...like cellular / mobile telephone networks.

And how is that a bad thing?

Josh, the quadrant worked in Columbus time, it will work now, as long as the sky is clear. Dead reckoning is fine when it's not.
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: JimIO on June 14, 2019, 1853 UTC
I thought the cell/mobile sites were connected by fiber/internet and GPS is whole different system. Anyway, about 25 years ago I said "Next time I fly I'm going to be the pilot".    8)
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: Josh on June 14, 2019, 2041 UTC
Never mind the fact that if the GPS system was knocked out a lot of other things we use on a daily basis would stop working...like cellular / mobile telephone networks.

And how is that a bad thing?

Josh, the quadrant worked in Columbus time, it will work now, as long as the sky is clear. Dead reckoning is fine when it's not.

Good news, USN has started teaching fresh squid how to use the sextant again.
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: jFarley on June 15, 2019, 0145 UTC
Might be a good time to consider going back to the Beacon and Arrow system.  This should be easy to fold into Infrastructure Week the next time it comes around.

http://www.dreamsmithphotos.com/arrow/States/az/images/34a_24%20LA-A%20phoenix%20sign.jpg
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: JimIO on June 15, 2019, 0323 UTC
Trump Airport   <<<   that way.

http://beta.ems.ladbiblegroup.com/s3/content/808x455/b4a1f0835cf482f2348d4fbc1812d15e.png
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: R4002 on June 17, 2019, 1425 UTC
I thought the cell/mobile sites were connected by fiber/internet and GPS is whole different system. Anyway, about 25 years ago I said "Next time I fly I'm going to be the pilot".    8)

Cellular sites are connected via fiber, but in order for the site to work effectively with the sites around it, it needs to know exact time.  GPS provides a cheap accurate time reference source.  Without the time reference source for the base station to compare its own clocks to, the site will eventually lose sync (at least that's my understanding).  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong...

Sextants, a chart and a E6B flight computer.  The US Navy is teaching how to use the E6B flight computer as well, I believe.  In the few hours of flight training that I have had, I did learn how to navigate using the E6B as well as the magnetic compass/gyro compass, how to read (paper) charts, plot a course using VOR and NDB navaids (this was in a Cessna 172L without any GPS equipment whatsoever - only VOR, NDB, DME, a transponder that seemed perpetually set to 1200 and of course the usual VHF comm radio setup).

Hell, I even plotted a (rough) course with the ADF using a local AM broadcast band station as the beacon. 
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: skeezix on June 20, 2019, 0348 UTC
In addition to the NDBs, bring back navigation with the AM broadcast stations. Plot the important stations[1] on the charts again, along with MF broadcast airways, much the same as how the old NDB LF/MF airways were charted.

Would be kind of fun to have a WCCO 12L instrument approach into Minneapolis/St Paul Int'l as an NDB-equivalent approach.

With one or two 50kW stations, could start that approach hundreds of miles away.

ADF nav with FM broadcast stations? Sure, why not? (would need equipment that doesn't exist today).



[1] Clear channel, high power, and low power that are well located.
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on June 20, 2019, 1453 UTC



(https://i.imgur.com/LQIrf4A.png)
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: R4002 on June 20, 2019, 1520 UTC
640 kHz and 1240 kHz on your AM dial
Title: Re: Hundreds Of U.S. Flights Canceled As GPS-Based Aircraft Navigation System Fails
Post by: Traveling Wave on June 20, 2019, 1638 UTC
Talkin' WW III Blues (Bob Dylan) Lyrics
...Well, I remember seein' some ad
So I turned on my Conelrad
But I didn't pay my Con Ed bill
So the radio didn't work so well...