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Technical Topics => Equipment => Topic started by: alpard on August 06, 2020, 1305 UTC

Title: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 06, 2020, 1305 UTC
Which one is better for DXing weak signal digging out from the noise etc?
Which one would you go for?

Do you own either one of these or both? How do you find them?
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ThaDood on August 06, 2020, 1805 UTC
The Icom R75 will certainly dig it out better, especially if it's way in the noise levels. However, if that signal is of any decent signal strength, that Tecsun S-2000 will make it sound better, I kind of have it that way here. Hard to copy, noisy signals are for the Icom IC-745, (Pretty much the same RX as the famed IC-R71A.), but less noisy and somewhat stronger signals, especially if there's any fidelity to it, goes to the Kenwood TS-2000X. That said, the TS-2000X has indeed held its own on some weak signals as well. If having a decent QSO with a 5W 75M Pine Board Project AM op is any indication, when no one else seemed to hear them, yet I'm QSO'ing with them, then my Kenwood can't be too bad. (Yeah... I kindda' went off on a tangent, butt...) 
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 07, 2020, 1157 UTC
Is the R75's triple conversion makes significant difference in the reception quality / capability compared to S2000's double conversion?
Why is R75 better in digging out weak signals from the noise?  I suppose, if R75 has more functionalities such as notch filter and PBT / IF Tuning, it would be more advantageous for the adverse QRM conditions. (not sure if it does have more functions).  S2000 seems just bare minmum spec radio, but then it is cheaper radio.

But some forum posts that R75 having mysterious bug problems of sudden self dying, not powering on and muffled audio quality problems  sounds a bit off putting.

I used to think any transceiver lacks performance on GC coverage AM reception quality compared to dedicated GC receivers.
BTW, I heard that KENWOOD has gone off from Ham Radio manufacturing business. No more new  Kenwood radio any more. Is that true?
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 07, 2020, 1439 UTC
Icom radios, at least from that era, were notorious for poor audio. I don't have a R75, but I do have an R71A, bought circa 1990. The audio from the built in speaker is tolerable but not great. I have an external speaker connected, and it sounds much better. It's a quad conversion receiver, and the R71A was, for the time at least, considered a top performer for weak signal reception. The military bought pallets of them for SIGINT purposes.

Mine is down in the basement workshop now, so not used as much, mostly to listen to something in the background while doing work.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 07, 2020, 1536 UTC
Yeah, the old ICOM R71E I used to have was very good.  I regret selling it, at the time I had no interest in BCL.
Mine had special MOD done professionally to MW for super sensitivity and selectivity for DXing, and it was copying US stations every night on MW.
It was a great DX machine.

But R75, I am not sure. I have not had it myself, but from the Youtube reviews and demos, the audio sounded like from the radio in a cardboard box come to think of it.  And some of them seems suffering from sudden death syndrome, they say?    And it is heck more expensive than the humble TECSUN.
Not sure if it is a good buy. But still, if it can hear the weak signals that the other radio cannot hear on the same antenna, it would be still worth buying I would think. But can it? I am not sure.

I might finally plunge into a SDR, and hook it up to my PC. Or just look for a used TECSUN S-2000 for cheap.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 07, 2020, 1751 UTC
I might finally plunge into a SDR, and hook it up to my PC. Or just look for a used TECSUN S-2000 for cheap.

An AirSpyHF+ Discovery, or for a little more money an AFEDRI is going to give you a lot more bang for the buck than a TECSUN S-2000 or R75.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: pinto vortando on August 07, 2020, 2253 UTC
That race is over before the horses even leave the barn.
They both will hear the weak signal but the 2000 will also hear all the other nearby signals...
the 75 not so much as it has twin PBT, DSP, and available narrow filters for both IFs.
The audio on the 2000 sounds nicer but for serious listening digging out weak sigs
headphones are the way to go.
The 2000 is what it isn't and it isn't a serious communications receiver.
Not trying to slam the 2000 here, it's a nice radio, it's just not a fair comparison.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 08, 2020, 0708 UTC
I might finally plunge into a SDR, and hook it up to my PC. Or just look for a used TECSUN S-2000 for cheap.

An AirSpyHF+ Discovery, or for a little more money an AFEDRI is going to give you a lot more bang for the buck than a TECSUN S-2000 or R75.

How do you rate SDRPlay? They go for cheaper price here.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 08, 2020, 0713 UTC
That race is over before the horses even leave the barn.
They both will hear the weak signal but the 2000 will also hear all the other nearby signals...
the 75 not so much as it has twin PBT, DSP, and available narrow filters for both IFs.
The audio on the 2000 sounds nicer but for serious listening digging out weak sigs
headphones are the way to go.
The 2000 is what it isn't and it isn't a serious communications receiver.
Not trying to slam the 2000 here, it's a nice radio, it's just not a fair comparison.

But would you agree that recently HF bands gone very quiet with less stations on the AIR?  Crowded band and adjacent signals are 1990s problem?
Now occasionally you get problems with very strong stations just next to the weak station you are listening, and they spread out 10 kHz both sides of their freq. This is serious problem, but then I thought no amount of PBT, Notch filter or filtering can help clearing this problem? Can R76 cope with this 100% with its twin PBT and narrow filters?  Is the R75 narrow filter continuous one? or stepping one?

A few days ago, I was listening to a weak station KBS World Radio on 15575, and then there came a very strong VOA with 500 kW power output on 15580, spreading their signal 10 - 15 kHz wide from 15580. It wiped out the KBS on 15575, and I was listening it on the KiWi SDR on the internet.  It had filtering on the menu, but it was not making any different at all.  The weak station couldn't be heard intelligibly.  I was wondering if any radio can cope with that problem.

Even if S2000 isn't meant to be serious comms receiver, it seems have no seriously critical reviews as such. It has been around for many years now, and the price seems going up all the time in Amazon and eBay, and people seem to want it badly?
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: pinto vortando on August 08, 2020, 0930 UTC
The S2000 is a nice radio, the Satellit 750 version had been discontinued for a couple of years but it has recently been returned.
So, it is popular but a bit pricey. 
The only way to compare the selectivity between the R75 and the S2000 would be to look at their laboratory derived dynamic range specs.
There have been reviews of these specs for the R75 but could find so such info for the S2000.
Although the SWBC bands are not as crowded as once upon a time, the ham bands can be very crowded at times, so it depends on what, when, and where
you listen that selectivity becomes an issue.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 08, 2020, 1006 UTC
Here in Europe, even the ham bands are very quiet most of times.  It seems only active at nights on 40m and 80m for local rag chews and inter European contacts only.

I was only ham band operator, but because the bands has gone silent, I now turned to BCL. :(

Talking about pricey, ICR75 seems very expensive for what it is just because of the name? And ICOM is now no longer a Japanese company, sold to a Chinese company, so it is the name only but inside could be TECSUN or XHDATA :DD

I read ICR75 reviews on eham, and most are positive, but there are some very critical negative reviews on it.  It is the negative reviews one must pay attention I feel.  Most positive reviews seem under emotional hikes of how much they lashed out the cash for a little box just sits in front of them and muffles away when switched on :))

But the negative reviews on ICR75 seem common for, 1. The audio quality is bad. 2. PBT and filters don't work at all. 3. Has much noise generated by the receiver itself.

Yes, ICR75 is about 2-3 time more expensive radio than S2000, and was wondering if it is worth the money.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 08, 2020, 1235 UTC
I might finally plunge into a SDR, and hook it up to my PC. Or just look for a used TECSUN S-2000 for cheap.

An AirSpyHF+ Discovery, or for a little more money an AFEDRI is going to give you a lot more bang for the buck than a TECSUN S-2000 or R75.

How do you rate SDRPlay? They go for cheaper price here.

It... depends.  :)

As you noted, the SDRPlay is less expensive. Also, it covers all of VHF and UHF. The AirSpyHF+/Discovery are HF and part of the VHF band (mostly FM and VHF-Hi). The AFEDRI is HF only, although there is another version that adds a VHF/UHF tuner (I do not have that, but I have the same basic functionality in the netSDR with its VHF/UHF downconverter).  I do find that the AirpyHF+/Discovery is more sensitive and the AGC action seems to be a bit less wonky than SDRPlay, although both are more annoying than the AFEDRI or netSDR, which are direct sampling SDRs.

If you don't live in a fairly low noise environment where you can take advantage of the better sensitivity/etc, then the SDRPlay is probably more than adequate.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 08, 2020, 1247 UTC
Here in Europe, even the ham bands are very quiet most of times.  It seems only active at nights on 40m and 80m for local rag chews and inter European contacts only.

I was only ham band operator, but because the bands has gone silent, I now turned to BCL. :(

You need to listen to the right bands at the right times for where we are in the solar cycle. 20m is still quite active in the daytimes, and I am getting plenty of SSTV here in the USA from both Europe as well as South America and even Australia/New Zealand. It's summer right now, so static levels on 80/40 can be high at night, but there's still DX to be found.  Plus we're back to the previous conversation where a good antenna can be far more important than which receiver you are using.

Quote
Talking about pricey, ICR75 seems very expensive for what it is just because of the name? And ICOM is now no longer a Japanese company, sold to a Chinese company, so it is the name only but inside could be TECSUN or XHDATA :DD

Icom is still well respected, the IC-7300 is a highly regarded recent radio of theirs with overall excellent reviews, especially the performance for the price. I have one, it's a a great rig. Also, any used R75 you buy was made years ago anyway  :)

Quote
I read ICR75 reviews on eham, and most are positive, but there are some very critical negative reviews on it.  It is the negative reviews one must pay attention I feel.  Most positive reviews seem under emotional hikes of how much they lashed out the cash for a little box just sits in front of them and muffles away when switched on :))
/

This is certainly a problem with reviews overall, and something I consider for example when looking at reviews on Amazon. I also factor in that someone who is unhappy with their purchase is much more likely to take the time to post a negative review, than the typically happy customer. So that skews the reviews towards more negatives.

Quote
But the negative reviews on ICR75 seem common for, 1. The audio quality is bad. 2. PBT and filters don't work at all. 3. Has much noise generated by the receiver itself.

Yes, ICR75 is about 2-3 time more expensive radio than S2000, and was wondering if it is worth the money.

I seem to recall we have some R75 owners here, perhaps they can chime in eventually.  As I have said before, I don't have one, but from what I recall hearing over the years:

(1) Is true but probably something you can solve via an external speaker like I did with my R71A, but I have never heard of.

(2) Never heard of this. Might just be users who never RTFM.

(3) Seems to be an issue with the supplied power supply, substitute your own 12 linear supply and you solve it.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: RobRich on August 08, 2020, 1249 UTC
The R75 is a comms receiver. It sounds like one, too. ;) An external speaker often is recommended, especially for broadcast listening.

Being realistic about expectations, the S2000 is basically a portable inside a desktop-style casing. You get the benefit of larger controls, a bigger speaker, and a rotating AM BCB ferrite antenna. Otherwise you likely will see no particular performance benefit compared to a popular portable like the PL-660.

About the station bleedover, that is getting into selectivity. It is difficult to say if any particular receiver will help due to a litany of variables. That said, yeah, a comms receiver with narrow/sharp filtering and attenuation control should benefit in such a situation. A *good* sync detector could help, though ECSS tuning might suffice if just trying to get away from interference dominating one of the sidebands.

If not already done, you might try ECSS tuning on a websdr next time you encounter the situation. The basic idea is to zero-beat an AM transmission while using the receiver in SSB mode. If one sideband is noisy, such as encountering a heterodyne, then try the other sideband.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 08, 2020, 1653 UTC
Being realistic about expectations, the S2000 is basically a portable inside a desktop-style casing. You get the benefit of larger controls, a bigger speaker, and a rotating AM BCB ferrite antenna. Otherwise you likely will see no particular performance benefit compared to a popular portable like the PL-660.

Agreed. If one is less charitable, it's a portable masquerading as a communications receiver.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: jta on August 08, 2020, 1754 UTC
As a long-time R-75 user, I agree that the internal speaker isn't that great - but it's intended for utilities (primarily sideband) and voice. I used an outboard Heathkit mono amplifier fed from the Record jack into an external speaker and it was quite good.

The dual PBT certainly does work, although only one of them works in AM mode. The filters also work quite well - but you have to tell the CPU that you've installed them by going into the menu and selecting each one. As Chris said, ya gotta RTFM!

The noise is generated by the power wart, NOT the receiver! I installed .01uF disc capacitors across the diodes in the power wart, which reduced the noise. To eliminate it completely, run from a external DC supply.

I purchased the R-75 somewhere around 20 years ago and only sold it after I picked up an Icom 756Pro3 (with no xmit) as a high-end rcvr. The R-75 is a flexible unit that you can customize to *your* specific interests, and there are a few easy modifications to improve it even more.

In my opinion: If you can find one at a good price in the used market it's still a good buy.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 08, 2020, 1854 UTC
Great info. Thanks.

R75 is 2 - 3 times more expensive radio, so it wasn't to be comparable or competition thread.  But if one is to upgrade from portable HF radio such as PL-660 PL-680 or D-808, which one would be better one to go for, maybe that was the point.

It all depends on what kind listening one does too, I thought. I mean if you are mostly listening to strong stations in your continent, then any portable radio up to 20 - 50 box, and built in whip antenna will do the job and more. 

It only becomes an issue if one is trying to copy a station at the other side of Earth, say I am in Europe, and trying to copy stations in South America or Far East or South Pacific running only 1 - 10kW output, or if you are hunting for new countries on your SWL BCL DXing, then yes, those cheap portables won't cut the cake.  One must look for something more capable receiver with good DX antenna.

But for adjacent strong station bleed over, no inbuilt functions of radios worked for me. I used it with my old R71E, and now IC-751A.  They sort of work, but then immediately you put on these PBT, NOTCH or narrow filter, the audio degrades - it becomes not very intelligible or unpleasant to listen to.

The only way I could see to combat with the bleeding over station next to your signal is to use directional antenna such as Mag Loop, and rotate around for nulling the unwanted signal.

I still think S2000 is good value for money receiver for general SWL users with also DXing in mind.  I have seen it performs well on DXing on youtube. As long as you connect a good DX antenna, most radio will start dance the way you want to, I am sure :)

And maybe all those functions and gadgets are not really needed, unless they work absolutely properly and efficiently?

No doubt, if R75 and S2000 were same price, then yeah, it would be mad to go for S2000 just for the sheer spec and functionalities (even if they don't work 100%, sometimes they might, and come in handy) and all the rest of it,  but for half the price in used market, if one does not need all the gadgets loaded into R75? Then yeah, the whole thing becomes more multi dimensional to think about, I would say.

If you could pick up a S2000 for a half half price of R75 in used market in good working and cosmetic condition, and it will be a good buy, and even better buy too deepening on what your SWL DXing requires, and maybe put the money you saved into a better DX antenna with directivity, which I am thinking of doing. But I am also after a good SDR, and when I get more funds, I am planning to get a high end RX such as IC8600 or AOR 5001DX.

PS: I mean seriously, if you just lashed out 500 odd box for a comms radio, and still you must go and get external speaker extra, so that you will not fall sleep while listening to it, or get sick of SWL, and throw it out the window and take up gardening as your main hobby, or must order a new linear PSU for the radio so that the radio will not over heat and fry itself, then in my book, there is something wrong with the product, unless it can pull and hear whatever signals I want to hear in the band.

And RTFM? = If one has been doing this Radio hobby for over 20 - 30 years, and still must read manuals for every radio device he buys from front to back, wouldn't it be something wrong there too?  I mean there might be a thing or two, you might not know how to work it because they managed to hide the functions under the layers and layers of sub menus, but in general, you know what the box is supposed to be doing. RTFM is for some block who just bought or a given a shortwave radio for the first time in his life, and trying find what it is for. :D
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: East Troy Don on August 09, 2020, 1644 UTC
I've had the R75 I bought on EBAY over a year ago and my overall assessment is that, generally, its overrated.   Its noisy, not as sensitive as many other receivers from that time frame and somewhat cumbersome controls (particularly the ICOM RF/SQ  hybrid feature is a classic example of over-engineering).  The stock audio was so abysmal that  I had to improve the fidelity by patching the R75 audio output thru the Grundig 750 speaker which helped immeasurably (thanks and a tip of the hat to Pinto Vortando). 
IMHO, save your money on the R75 - there are plenty of other options out there that perform considerably better. 
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 09, 2020, 1832 UTC
Thank you for your notes and advice on the radios.

Yes, maybe R75 is not such a bad radio, but from Youtube reviews and demos, it didn't sound nice received audio.
And after reading the negative and critical reviews on R75, I could see what they meant.

I went and picked up a used S2000, and it is working great.
It is working far better than PL660 or any other portable radios I have tried.

For copying the weak and difficult signals, the S2000 sound more stable and clear than my PL660 or any other portables including the D-808.
And the S2000 has Antenna attenuation in 3 steps, plus RF gain control.  This makes huge difference in copying weak and difficult signals especially when the shack is RFI prone, or the band is noisy.  I can attenuate the amount of the signal coming in the antenna by the antenna attenuation switch, and then set the RF gain control for the best reception. It really pulls the weak signals into more readable signals. And the best things was it was cheap, only 150 box used, and in good condition and all working fine.

Apart from that, I love the way the substantial main tuning control which tunes so smoothly and quickly, plus the direct freq. entry key pad. Easy memory management. And looks so cool on the desk. I am glad I got it. PBT and Notch filters, I mean if they work well, like I said before, they would be great. But all my previous radios with the functions, it didn't.  The PBT and NOTCH and narrow filters on all my previous radios had been hardly used, because they kinda semi worked or worked but made the received audio muffled into intolerable state. :(

I will buy another radio in the future, if I know these functions work really well effectively making the weak and difficult signals into more readable signals.  But if they are not very effective, and not going to be used, then I would rather not have them.

Tnx & 73s :)
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ThaDood on August 10, 2020, 0014 UTC
For sound quality, here's an idea. Do you have friend that have either the S-2000, or the IC-R75, or even better, both? Ask if you can bring your best headphones, and a favorite speaker, over to their QTH for a try-out. While you are there, ask about what outdoor antennas they use and their tough catches that they try and get.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 10, 2020, 1239 UTC
No, no one has R75 here from my pals.

I must admit that I am not too happy with the sound quality of the S2000 either. It is not a perfect radio either. I mean for 150 box a used second hand radio, it is OK. But it is a great improvement from my other radios such as D-808, PL-660 and PL-680, because this S2000 sounds and works far far better than them.

I noticed that when the received signals are weak, it sounds dull too. It is difficult to understand the incoming speech. When the signals is good, the sound quality is very good. I am not sure if it has to do with DSP receivers or something else. But I can live with it.

I mean when the signals are so weak, I just know it is there, no readability and no intelligibility. I know either male or female voice or music playing, but it is a rare DX, then I am thankful the signal is detected on the freq. and that is all I can ask for.

My ICOM IC-751A sounds great on AM with normal setting, but once the narrow filter is on, it becomes unreadable, even with the good signal reception.  With the Notch and PBT which only works with the narrow filter on? - it doesn't help anything.

The S2000 smooth main tuning dial and Ant. attenuation with RF gain just for these, it was well worth upgrading from all the portables I have.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000. Radio Jay's Review on the S-2000.
Post by: ThaDood on August 10, 2020, 1714 UTC
Huh... Radio Jay Allen covers the Tecsun S-2000,     https://radiojayallen.com/grundig-satellit-750tecsun-s-2000-another-look/
His reports and descriptions are quite layman's terms, (Which can be good and bad. Good for 95% of the populous, but bad for us that want tech specs.), but it is a look at another opinion on that portable.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 11, 2020, 0837 UTC
Still a very favourable review on S2000.  I feel that his review is accurate and practical for beginner SWLs.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: chanito on August 11, 2020, 1655 UTC
Apples and oranges. The R75 is a low end but mil spec communications receiver, while the S2000 is a consumer portable built into a large case.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 14, 2020, 1006 UTC
Apples and oranges. The R75 is a low end but mil spec communications receiver, while the S2000 is a consumer portable built into a large case.

All the famous and popular HF radio makers such as SONY, Panasonic, Toshiba, Sharp, Sanyo ... blah  blah, their 99% of HF radios were for domestic use and models. But yet people love them. All of their HF radios are vintage 20 - 40 years old.  Many people collect them and keep using them even now.

You don't need mil spec. radios to be able to enjoy DX, do you? :D  And you are NOT in the military or war. Why would you have mil spec radios? :D
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 14, 2020, 1449 UTC
Apples and oranges. The R75 is a low end but mil spec communications receiver, while the S2000 is a consumer portable built into a large case.

All the famous and popular HF radio makers such as SONY, Panasonic, Toshiba, Sharp, Sanyo ... blah  blah, their 99% of HF radios were for domestic use and models. But yet people love them. All of their HF radios are vintage 20 - 40 years old.  Many people collect them and keep using them even now.

You don't need mil spec. radios to be able to enjoy DX, do you? :D  And you are NOT in the military or war. Why would you have mil spec radios? :D

It depends what your goals are. If you just want to listen to high power SWBC stations (of which there are sadly fewer and fewer of each year) then yes, a simple portable radio is usually adequate. If you're hunting for tough DX catches, or are interested in what is outside of the SWBC bands, then you probably want a more capable receiver.

As far as why do some people collect and use vintage radios, it's more about nostalgia than performance. People get emotional satisfaction from using stuff from their childhood or early adult years. It's the same reason some people collect/restore/use old computers from the 70s and 80s. They're fun to use, but certainly not "better" (by any reasonable metric, anyway) than modern computers.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 14, 2020, 1639 UTC
Apples and oranges. The R75 is a low end but mil spec communications receiver, while the S2000 is a consumer portable built into a large case.

All the famous and popular HF radio makers such as SONY, Panasonic, Toshiba, Sharp, Sanyo ... blah  blah, their 99% of HF radios were for domestic use and models. But yet people love them. All of their HF radios are vintage 20 - 40 years old.  Many people collect them and keep using them even now.

You don't need mil spec. radios to be able to enjoy DX, do you? :D  And you are NOT in the military or war. Why would you have mil spec radios? :D

It depends what your goals are. If you just want to listen to high power SWBC stations (of which there are sadly fewer and fewer of each year) then yes, a simple portable radio is usually adequate. If you're hunting for tough DX catches, or are interested in what is outside of the SWBC bands, then you probably want a more capable receiver.

As far as why do some people collect and use vintage radios, it's more about nostalgia than performance. People get emotional satisfaction from using stuff from their childhood or early adult years. It's the same reason some people collect/restore/use old computers from the 70s and 80s. They're fun to use, but certainly not "better" (by any reasonable metric, anyway) than modern computers.

Yeah, I would agree with you.
But the point in this thread was whether S2000 was as good upgrade as R75 for DXing.
And I think it is.  I was able to hear a lot of interesting DX signals with the S2000 for well less than half the money of R75.

Was it worth upgrading from my portables? Yes, it was.
Would R75 have given twice more DX signals that S2000 couldn't hear with all its loaded gadgets and bells and whistles on the same antenna?
I suppose the answers have to come from the R75 owners, who are hunting for the rare and interesting new DX signals with the radio.


PS: Collecting vintage radios and etc. was mentioned because chanito was saying the S2000 is not a mill. spec radio, whereas R75 is.
Mil spec. radios from pre 1945 or 1950s Korean War are the real collectors radios :D The real military radios are not even allowed into my house anywhere near it by xyl. :)
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: RobRich on August 14, 2020, 2141 UTC
If you do not get into a serious SDR setup right away, I would still suggest acquiring even a basic RLT-SDR. The RTL-SDR Blog V3 probably is a good as any IMO. Around $25 shipped.

https://www.rtl-sdr.com/buy-rtl-sdr-dvb-t-dongles/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0129EBDS2/

Also remember connector adapters if needed. The model I linked has a SMA female connector. You can get adapters to F female or whatever for like a couple of dollars shipped at eBay.

With the right antenna and a decent computer, you might be surprised by what you currently are or are not receiving.

The RTL-SDR also is a good gateway into VHF and UHF monitoring.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 14, 2020, 2208 UTC
I almost bought a SDR from Amazon this week, but one of the reviewer said that his one works OK on VHF and UHF, but on HF it has many birdies and cross modulation. When I read it, I felt  oh man, I know it and hate it, and didn't buy it.  It was 29 box, so not expensive, and I think they would keep improving the products and be really usable soon, but when I read the negative review, I stayed away from it again.

But I think it would be good if SDR works well on HF MW LW and VLF. But then if you want to listen on MW LW VLF, then you need a good quality LPF they said.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 14, 2020, 2310 UTC
I almost bought a SDR from Amazon this week, but one of the reviewer said that his one works OK on VHF and UHF, but on HF it has many birdies and cross modulation. When I read it, I felt  oh man, I know it and hate it, and didn't buy it.  It was 29 box, so not expensive, and I think they would keep improving the products and be really usable soon, but when I read the negative review, I stayed away from it again.

But I think it would be good if SDR works well on HF MW LW and VLF. But then if you want to listen on MW LW VLF, then you need a good quality LPF they said.

It was most likely an RTL dongle, maybe with an upconverter, maybe just using one of the hacks to directly tune RF. Either way, not that usable for HF.  Several of us have mentioned some good SDR choices for HF previously in this long and winding thread.  :)
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: RobRich on August 15, 2020, 0006 UTC
I use a RTL-SDR V3 in direct sampling mode for casual HF listening in the den, as I do not have any desktop HF receivers currently there. Like Chris basically insinuated, it is not a solution for DX or selectivity, especially compared to something like a Airspy HF+ or better. However, it is less than $30, so.... ;) It is where I usually tell people to start into SDR if they are not sure about dropping $200 for something better.

Luckily I was able to remove the lowpass filter I had inline without any significant issues, thus I can tune casually MW through UHF with point-and-click ease. Local AM stations, broadcast shortwave stations, regional SSB amateur ragchews, FM locals, NOAA weather, etc.

I do have substantial RF choking inline: a KD9SV SV-CMC common mode choke, plus ferrites on both the feedline and USB cables.

The big deal with RTL-SDR dongles is incredibly easy overloading in direct sampling mode. They have low dynamic range, among other issues, particularly at HF and lower. I typically use my 9' vertical ground-mounted over a few radials when listening via a RTL-SDR, even well into VHF. An outboard preamp just raises the noise floor and further lowers available SNR. An outboard preselector might be more prudent, but if going to the expense and/or hassle, you might as well start with a better SDR anyway.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 15, 2020, 0011 UTC
An outboard preamp just raises the noise floor and further lowers available SNR. An outboard preselector might be more prudent, but if going to the expense and/or hassle, you might as well start with a better SDR anyway.

At some point, you've spent so much extra money putting lipstick on the pig that you'd be better with an SDR designed for HF use  :)

Note: I'm not disparaging the dongles in general, for VHF/UHF they're actually an incredible value IMHO. I have some running myself, one is decoding the various 434 MHz transmissions from all sorts of electronic doodads. Lots of folks use them for 1090 MHz ADS-B monitoring. And you can find tire pressure sensors on 315 MHz. I'm sure Fansome would approve of monitoring them  :)
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: RobRich on August 15, 2020, 0019 UTC
True enough. For a personal perspective, I have lots of the extra stuff collecting dust on shelves anyway. Preamps, preselectors, tuners, attenuators, etc.

I still have an even cheaper built E4000 dongle from back when the RTL-SDR fad started. Admittedly, yeah, that thing was largely useless for anything but basic experimenting.

My next significant SDR purchase probably will be an Airspy HF+. That seems to be about the current break even point for a SDR regarding decent HF performance versus cost.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 15, 2020, 1057 UTC
yeah, I get the point.

They work fine for VHF and UHF, but for HF, you need something better than RTL-SDR.
I think SDRPlay is very popular here, and AirSpy is more expensive not very popular.

I still keep using the KiWi SDRs all over Europe for checking out if what I am hearing is either ghost image or the real signal, and also the HF band conditions etc.
I think the quality of SDR will further improve, and price will keep coming down.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: RobRich on August 28, 2020, 0133 UTC
Received my Airspy HF+ Discovery today. I was thinking about the dual-port model for more easily using a dedicated VHF antenna, but the addition of extra preselector filtering moved me to the Discovery mode since HF is my main interest anyway.

Added a KD9SV SV-CMC common mode choke on the feedline before the SDR and an USB extension cable multi-turn wound on a couple of snap-on ferrites - probably mix 31 or 43.

I will spare a serious review as there are plenty online. Just quick a commentary that it is working quite nicely even with it currently connected just to my 9' ground-mounted vertical. Very low noise floor and good dynamic range, which hopefully will further enhance the performance of my 148' loop-on-ground.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 28, 2020, 1127 UTC
I read good things about AirSpy.  I was contemplating buying one at one time, but am told that now 16bit 32Mhz 64Mhz SDRs coming out into the market. Maybe it is still  time to hold for the newer technology in SDR?
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 28, 2020, 1131 UTC
By the way, my S2000 is working great.  It is not a perfect or high grade radio, but it is adequate for hobbyist DXing.
It lacks various filters for QRM, that is only problem. But then, if the signal is that bad with QRM, how many radios with various filters can make it noticeably better, so that it becomes clearly readable from non readable?
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 28, 2020, 1237 UTC
I read good things about AirSpy.  I was contemplating buying one at one time, but am told that now 16bit 32Mhz 64Mhz SDRs coming out into the market. Maybe it is still  time to hold for the newer technology in SDR?

There's always newer technology coming on the market :) At some point you pull the trigger.

I have a Airspy HF+ Discovery that I currently use for decoding SSTV, it sits on 14230 USB 24/7. I also have one of the non-Discovery HF+ models, which is about the same performance wise (the Discovery may be a tad better), although I do like the fact that it has two antenna inputs, one for HF and one for the limited VHF range, vs a shared RF input on the Discovery.

FWIW my netSDR has a 16 bit 80 MHz sample rate ADC. I've had it for... let's see... April 2011 it seems. Still works like a champ  :)
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 28, 2020, 1253 UTC
So, 16bit SDR has been in the marker for many years?  It is just it was first time I saw the 16bit 32Mb SDR on eBay for sale. Before it was always either SDRPlay or AirSpy and their clones, or the cheap dongles for 20 box.

I was interested in the new RX666 and RX888 when I saw them a few days ago. I even almost bought it too. I am glad I didn't :D

And then there are many of the Malachite stand alone SDRs which look also very attractive too.  Interesting times :D

My question is whether these new tech SDRs will be able to copy the weak DX signals from South America on the tropical bands with their low power transmitters on the same antennas I am using now?  All my radios have been struggling copying the signals, and some days I stayed up until 2am in the morning trying to copy them, no joy. :(
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 28, 2020, 1341 UTC
Quote
So, 16bit SDR has been in the marker for many years?

Yes.

Quote
My question is whether these new tech SDRs will be able to copy the weak DX signals from South America on the tropical bands with their low power transmitters on the same antennas I am using now?  All my radios have been struggling copying the signals, and some days I stayed up until 2am in the morning trying to copy them, no joy.

My guess? Probably not. Your reception is likely limited by antenna performance as well as local noise/RFI levels. My advice would be to improve what you can there first, then look to see whether a better receiver would help further. It very well could, but tackle the antenna first. If you provide some detailed information about your yard (dimensions, distance to the shack, available trees, locations of obstructions & issues like power lines, any limitations on what you are allowed to put up, etc) I am sure you can get some useful suggestions.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 28, 2020, 2216 UTC
Yeah, I thought that was the case. The receiver is not really going make too much difference once they are reasonably good ones.  Whether it was a 2k - 5k AOR or JRC radios, or a cheap Tecsun or old Sangean or dirt cheap XHData, they will all be copying the signals in similar way on the same antenna? I am not able to comment on the SDRs, as I have never owned or used it.

The antenna makes the signal heard or missed. So if one is into hunting that weak DX signals, then the first most important thing is a good antenna.
And as you say, your location and RFI situation will kick in.  The receiver will come next provided also there were the propagation.

My yard is not too big, it is about 15m x 15m, so I have a wire loop about 30m long in delta shape horizontally hung on the washing pole.  And I have a MLA30 now in the patio.  Not really great for DX, but then the band condition is not the best now is it?  I am thinking of putting out a vertical antenna, and add more wire to the wire loop. Trying to get more DX signals logged. :)

Provided all these elements got right, I am sure  good receiver will further help.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on August 28, 2020, 2331 UTC
Yeah, I thought that was the case. The receiver is not really going make too much difference once they are reasonably good ones.  Whether it was a 2k - 5k AOR or JRC radios, or a cheap Tecsun or old Sangean or dirt cheap XHData, they will all be copying the signals in similar way on the same antenna? I am not able to comment on the SDRs, as I have never owned or used it.

I agree with the first part, the reasonably good radios. But I would not lump a "cheap Tecsun or old Sangean or dirt cheap XHData" into that category. No matter how good your antenna is, they are going to have serious problems.

Quote
The antenna makes the signal heard or missed. So if one is into hunting that weak DX signals, then the first most important thing is a good antenna.
And as you say, your location and RFI situation will kick in.  The receiver will come next provided also there were the propagation.

Correct, do the best you can antenna-wise. Because even if you have a high end receiver, if you connect a crappy antenna to it, you will have crappy reception.  And then RFI is another matter, often there is little you can do to solve that with an antenna, other than re-locating it. RFI is best solved at the source, by eliminating it.

Quote
My yard is not too big, it is about 15m x 15m, so I have a wire loop about 30m long in delta shape horizontally hung on the washing pole.  And I have a MLA30 now in the patio.  Not really great for DX, but then the band condition is not the best now is it?  I am thinking of putting out a vertical antenna, and add more wire to the wire loop. Trying to get more DX signals logged. :)

Provided all these elements got right, I am sure  good receiver will further help.

What is the RFI situation actually like? Walk around with a portable radio. No need to tune into a SW station, you want to listen for RFI (ideally on the bands if interest to you). If you encounter RFI, see if some parts of the yard have less RFI, that is where you want to put your antenna.   If your RFI situation is really bad everywhere though, then you may not be able to improve things past where you are now (other than preventing overloading, per your other post).
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: RobRich on August 29, 2020, 0356 UTC
I can get armchair copy from my now ancient Soft66LC4 SDR, which is I/Q sampled via a sound card, but the attached antenna and the arriving signals are the more the important factors there IMO. It is not much for weak signal work, but it is perfectly fine for listening to lots of powerful shortwave broadcasters.

Alpard, also take note that sampling like up to 32MHz of spectrum can be great, but sampling bandwidth is not an outright indicator of performance. ;)

For example, the mentioned Airspy HF+ models use a 16-bit ADC followed by a DDC for decimation to an 18-bit output, but bandwidth is limited to a max 912KHz. For many people who are casual hobbyists, like me, that is more than enough to *visually* monitor on a waterfall at a time.

Sure if you are recording and/or streaming from multiple bands, like Chris does, then admittedly large sampling bandwidth can make more sense.

There are a litany of other specs involved, too. Internal noise floor, sensitivity, selectivity, dynamic range, etc. From your other thread regarding receiver overload, it seems like selectivity might be a distinct concern for your particular situation.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on August 29, 2020, 0921 UTC
I have copied some good DX signals (rare and hard to copy and weak) with the cheap and old radios when the condition was great with just wire in the garden.

My location is in the residential area with no serious RFI.  During the day, sometimes the next door neighbour can use electrical saw, drills or grinder, which can be seriously bad RFI. But it lasts only for an hour or two. At nights, it is RFI free relatively.  But then when xyl put on the TV in the living room, it can interfere with my radios. But she put it off around 11pm, so it is actually RFI clean after that in this house.

I still think my antenna is not ideal for DX rxing. So will keep on experimenting and trying improve on that.

I can see Chris is SDR only user, whereas Rob has AirSpy but uses the vintage Trio R600 and 2000 and even FRG-7? :D  I have a FRG7 too. Still using it for DXing, and it works great.  But it can sound sometimes very noisy.  I like my Tecsun S2000, because it is a lot quieter receiver with good sensitivity and selectivity.

Rather than getting the old high grade radios such as Icom JRC or AOR or even Kenwood, I now feel it is better going for good SDRs.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on September 25, 2020, 1413 UTC
I now picked up an ICOM R75.  It is a great rig, but TECSUN S2000 is still a good radio too.  R75 is more robustly made and has more features, and works great. But  S2000 has still its place = it is fast and easy to tune to the signals I am after, and the audio is mellow and rich.  They are different radios in audio quality and style.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on September 30, 2020, 0854 UTC
I have been playing around with the ICOM R75 for a few days, and yes, I found it excellent high quality receiver way over the level of the S2000.
The twin PBT work treat. When copying the weak signal from VoA txed from Botswana 6080, the signal was barely audible with no intelligibility initially. When tuned and peaked with the R75's twin PBT, the signal came up stronger and became readable.

And the 2x preamps, W and N filters and S-AM mode all work great and are very useful . The audio is clean and crisp. Overall  4.9/5 from me.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: East Troy Don on September 30, 2020, 1615 UTC
I have been playing around with the ICOM R75 for a few days, and yes, I found it excellent high quality receiver way over the level of the S2000.
The twin PBT work treat. When copying the weak signal from VoA txed from Botswana 6080, the signal was barely audible with no intelligibility initially. When tuned and peaked with the R75's twin PBT, the signal came up stronger and became readable.

And the 2x preamps, W and N filters and S-AM mode all work great and are very useful . The audio is clean and crisp. Overall  4.9/5 from me.

What antenna setup are you using with the R75?
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on September 30, 2020, 1923 UTC

What antenna setup are you using with the R75?

It is either a MLA30+ or Long Wire with Ameco PT-2 preamp.  The latter seems work better for DXing.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: M R I on October 02, 2020, 1714 UTC
My R75 has been collecting dust. I fired it up after seeing this post. It is a very good receiver.  Especially for SSB, it needs a TCXO. I need HI FI broadcast audio so I will build a SDR 9 MHz IF board then feed it to a 192Khz sound card with HDSDR with CAT control to sync frequency with the R75. This would make a great setup.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on October 03, 2020, 1808 UTC
Interesting.  Let us know how you got on with the set up.

Just wondering, if your R75 has the DSP installed.  Unfortunately mine doesn't have the DSP, and I wonder if lack of DSP in the set makes the narrow filter sounds muffled.
Yes, my only problem with the R75 is that, when the narrow filter is selected, the audio becomes awfully muffled.  Due to this, I have been using it with the Wide filter selected only, but many times, I find it too wide, which gives selectivity problems.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on October 03, 2020, 1814 UTC
Compared to AOR 7030, I prefer R75 AM audio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Eccrzuj8w
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: M R I on October 08, 2020, 1808 UTC
wondering, if your R75 has the DSP installed.  Unfortunately mine doesn't have the DSP, and I wonder if lack of DSP in the set makes the narrow filter sounds muffled.
Yes, my only problem with the R75 is that, when the narrow filter is selected, the audio becomes awfully muffled.  Due to this, I have been using it with the Wide filter selected only, but many times, I find it too wide, which gives selectivity problems.

The R-75 has 3 stock filters 15k 6K 2.4K. If properly set up in the filter selection menu (see operation manual) you should be able to access all of them. You likely have it set up wrong. If a filter is selected to off (in the menu) it will sound muffled. The 2.4K filter is to narrow on AM but is still useful on very weak stations. If you off tune the AM station you should hear a difference between the 15K and 6K filters when switching them. I found that my R75 was not set up correctly. Now I have all 3 filters working as W-15K, 6K, N-2.4K. Also if you can get a used or old new stock DSP it works very well.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on October 09, 2020, 0831 UTC
wondering, if your R75 has the DSP installed.  Unfortunately mine doesn't have the DSP, and I wonder if lack of DSP in the set makes the narrow filter sounds muffled.
Yes, my only problem with the R75 is that, when the narrow filter is selected, the audio becomes awfully muffled.  Due to this, I have been using it with the Wide filter selected only, but many times, I find it too wide, which gives selectivity problems.

The R-75 has 3 stock filters 15k 6K 2.4K. If properly set up in the filter selection menu (see operation manual) you should be able to access all of them. You likely have it set up wrong. If a filter is selected to off (in the menu) it will sound muffled. The 2.4K filter is to narrow on AM but is still useful on very weak stations. If you off tune the AM station you should hear a difference between the 15K and 6K filters when switching them. I found that my R75 was not set up correctly. Now I have all 3 filters working as W-15K, 6K, N-2.4K. Also if you can get a used or old new stock DSP it works very well.

Great info & advice MRI.  Yes, that sounds right. I have not read the manual yet, as I just got the R75 a few days ago. Just powered on temporary set up for checking out, that it is working OK.  Will need to set it up correctly in the new room - as my daughter moves out this weekend to her new flat in the city, I shall have her room as my new SWL/BCL room. :D

But yes, after a few nights of listening to the R75, I feel that it is an awesome radio.  Even with no proper set up and temporary trying RX, it sounded like the most sensitive receiver I have ever come across. I will get the manual out and read up for setting the filters.   I am looking forward to this winter season for some interesting DXing with the R75.


Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on October 18, 2020, 1049 UTC
I have set up the filters on the ICOM IC-R75, and now it sounds beautiful.
A great receiver, R75 is. 
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: Looking-Glass on November 03, 2020, 1037 UTC
I have both of those receivers, the ICOM IC-R75 is by far the best, Tecsun S-2000 leaves a lot to be desired.  If you are really serious about DXing then go for the ICOM with a good antenna. LG ;)
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: ChrisSmolinski on November 03, 2020, 1129 UTC
I have both of those receivers, the ICOM IC-R75 is by far the best, Tecsun S-2000 leaves a lot to be desired.

Funny how that works :)

If you are really serious about DXing then go for the ICOM with a good antenna. LG ;)

A good antenna is indeed critical. And with a real communications receiver like an Icom vs a Tecsun consumer radio, you won't need to worry as much about overloading, images, etc.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: pinto vortando on November 03, 2020, 2012 UTC
The 750 version of the 2000 became available again this summer, but at 400 USD is overpriced.
A nice radio for the casual DXer with plenty of sensitivity (be careful not to overload it) and
good audio but selectivity is not so great even in "narrow" mode.  On a crowded ham band the
radio just can't get out of its own way as signals pour in on top of each other. 
That said, it is still my favorite portable by a large margin.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on November 19, 2020, 1425 UTC
The Ham bands are not crowded these days, but very quiet side. Plenty of space.
So are the SW bands.  MW DX bands are very busy at nights with DX signals from inter continents.

My Tecsun S-2000 never have problems with overloading even with very large high gain antennas.
It has 3 step antenna attenuator and separate RF Gain control, which is a strong point of the set.
Without that function, perhaps it is not that great radio. With that function, it is as good as any high
grade radio.  You must know how to use it efficiently for the condition of the band and the signal you
are digging out from the noise. Very delicate process it can be, but it is very effective and powerful feature.

Non other radios got that - continuously adjustable RF gain and 3 step antenna attenuator.

Of course it not perfect but it definitely fills the gap in the market. It is a desktop, but also handy that
it accepts D size batteries for mobile or field operation.

A great radio. Heard many DX with it.  But my favourite radio now is Icom IC-R75.  Again I learned on
how to use it properly, and now it absolutely blows mind in DXing performance.
Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: pinto vortando on November 19, 2020, 2259 UTC
The ham bands can be very crowded on a big contest weekend which we seem to have a lot of this time of year.
Even in the evening after dinner 80 and 40 start to load up.

MW at night here in the States you need all the selectivity you can get.  Otherwise an adjacent clear channel 50kw
blowtorch will walk all over you. 

The 2000 will be OK with most any wire antenna if you live far enough away from a
powerful AM broadcast band station.
Just don't try an active antenna or amplified loop... it WILL overload.

The use of D batteries is nice.  My 750 (version of the 2000) gets used most every night always on battery.
The current set of D cells were replaced in May and still show full on the display... usually get at least a year
out of them.

My 750 is my go to radio for casual listening...  easy to use, no menus, direct pushbutton entry.


Title: Re: ICOM ICR-75 vs. TECSUN S-2000
Post by: alpard on November 20, 2020, 1025 UTC
Yes, I think if S-2000 had good PBT and Notch filter for more selectivity, it would be even better.
ICOM IC-R75 has them all, and works great.