Author Topic: does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a replacement for a IRF510  (Read 2348 times)

Offline ka1iic

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Serious question (yeah I know I seldom am are serious); does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a good replacement for an IRF510 ? for RF and/or AF purposes or should I just bite the bullet and google for the spec sheets?  (hate doing that... sigh)

Thanks folks... :-)
73 Vince
KA1IIC

"If you can't be anything, you can at least be annoying"

Troy, Ohio. 20m Vertical & low long wire E/W, Yaesu FT-187ND, SDRplay 2, Ratt Shack 2 meter rig, and other little bits of electronics I'm not talking about, homebrewed and otherwise... so there bleech!

Offline redhat

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It depends on what you need it for.  The '610 has a higher voltage rating, but lower current rating.  In your typical grenade, that could be a problem, and perhaps why bigger versions of the rig use the IRF530 instead.

+-RH
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Offline moof

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I never had much luck even trying 530 for 510.  Just get some at Mouser.  7000 in stock.  $6.50 per 10 pack.  I better check my parts drawer.

Offline Stretchyman

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Time to move on 20+ years into the future!!!!!

TPH3206PSB

Get mine from DigiKey.

OK theyre 16 times the price but a much better device.

VERY easy to drive and a MUCH higher voltage rating.

I can easily get over 120W out of one where I'd struggle to get 40W from an IRF510.


To answer your question, Yes you can sub the 610 for a 510 but it's even worse a device with a 1.5R on resistance, that's 3 times what a 510 has so three times as lossy.

So running the 'usual' 12V and 4A peaks to get 40W RF for 48W in (typical single ended class E efficiency).

V = IR, So Volts dropped across the 610 will be 4 X 1.5 = 6V, so half your volts and W = VI, 6X4 = 24W lost in heat, Yeah great!

I'd give it a miss bud!

The GaN FET from Transphorm is little short of amazing and will work upto 20+ MHz with the right driver (NOT a 74HC240!)

OH, it's got a GROUNDED SOURCE TO TAB so doesnt need an insulating washer, YES!


Str.


'It's better to give than receive' so why RX when you can TX!

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Offline ka1iic

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Thanks all for your replies they are great fully received... thank you all

Cost isn't a problem... I already have then... in my junk box :-)  An yes they are good and I assure you I didn't pay as much as a dollar for the lot... You see I'm cheap, don't you know <heh>

Power wise as in voltage input... not over 12 volts...  I don't build battery packs much over 12 volts...  I could and there is good reason to do it but I chose not too for certain reasons :-)  I am also quite stubborn...

QRP is up to and including 5 watts...  Pirate?  Hell no!  It's for the CW portion on the 40 meter band unless something goes wrong and for some reason it ends up in the 43 meter region , if that happens I will immediately cease all transmission(s)  and hit the bottle again... (sorry I digest  errr digress) 

But logic says one should use a dummy load...  Well damn it there is no dummy bigger than I and I am one hell of a load. sri about that... getting creative with the words and language...

As for 'pirates'...  on board ship for months, sometimes years,  it must be a lonely life indeed lacking the comforts of a kindly and comely woman... or it is until the First-mate bends over and gets it driven hard up the fundament...    Bring out large casks of Rum and consume it with great gusto and pass the First-mate around after the Rum...  so you want to be a Pirate?... not me... Homey don't play dat OK...  But sitting in my little radio room with me Lady on me lap...  heh heh I might be up for anything... :-)

Later folks....

Vince
73 Vince
KA1IIC

"If you can't be anything, you can at least be annoying"

Troy, Ohio. 20m Vertical & low long wire E/W, Yaesu FT-187ND, SDRplay 2, Ratt Shack 2 meter rig, and other little bits of electronics I'm not talking about, homebrewed and otherwise... so there bleech!

Offline uhf35

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Re: does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a replacement for a IRF510
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 0003 UTC »
And, the answer is YES. But... (always there is a "but") It is true only electronically speaking. The major problem for the 620 to use in RF is a Rds (on) (1,5) against 0,54 of 510 (in fact, the most reliably is IRF520 with 0,27.) A resistance from drain to source low, there will be a tiny voltage drop across it and more signal into amplifier ;)

Offline Stretchyman

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Re: does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a replacement for a IRF510
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2017, 0922 UTC »
The Facts have already been stated but folk seem hung up on using what they have to hand / in their junk box, whatever.

Whilst being resourcful it does nothing to push forward the knowledge and use of more recent technology.

GaN is the way forward, the devices will get cheaper.

The TPS devices can be driven (40m and below) with the 'Usual' 74HC240 running at 5V (Yes ONLY 5V!) and will happily give a 40W carrier @ 24V.

They'll go much higher in freq but need a 'proper' fet driver.

End of....

 ;)


« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 0830 UTC by Stretchyman »
'It's better to give than receive' so why RX when you can TX!

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Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a replacement for a IRF510
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 1821 UTC »
http://semiengineering.com/what-happened-to-gan-and-sic/

From 2015, so a little out of date, but explains why GaN parts are $$$ and difficult to find.
Chris Smolinski
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Offline didu heardat

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Re: does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a replacement for a IRF510
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2017, 0205 UTC »
i'll have to go buy one of those fancy new fangled coffee makers now.
i hate visiting the appliance store but i can't be using old technology to keep my coffee warm no longer.

damn i'm gonna miss all those glowing tubes(driven by a irf510 at times) that keeps my coffee warm ;-) ;-)

« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 0206 UTC by didu heardat »

Offline KaySeeks

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Re: does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a replacement for a IRF510
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2018, 2033 UTC »
And, the answer is YES. But... (always there is a "but")

Yes, there always is a "but..." because, if you have been around enough, you will know that there always is a trade off.

As some have noted, the Rds of the the IRF520 is approximately half that of the IRF510. That improvement will not come without a price and that price is speed - the input and output capacitance is approximately double that of the IRF510 and it is slower as a result. That may or may not affect you.

Similarly, the IRF620 has a slightly higher Rds than the IRF510 and IRF520, but it can sustain twice the Vds of the IRF510 and IRF520 and that trade off means that the input and output capacitances increase (thus it is slower), but not to the same degree as the IRF520. That may or may not affect you.

Now from the "more than you wanted to know" department:

I have not decapped any of these to look at the insides but I'm fairly comfortable in saying that these probably share a common die layout and they just make metal mask or wirebonding options to add or subtract elements. The doubling of the Vds probably means that they just stack the equivalent of two IRF510s in series into the same package (essentially), thus doubling the sustaining voltage. Similarly, to halve the Rds, they essentially parallel two IRF510s but that of course means that the input and output capacitances double. This is the trade off I spoke of. There is no such thing as a "free lunch" in this sort of configuration.

Why would they do it this way? It's cheaper to manufacture in this manner and you cut product development costs by essentially spawning multiple products from one common element. There are customers that want more Vds capability than the IRF510, there are others that need more current capability than the IRF510; this gives them the option of addressing all those markets with less engineering activity.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 2111 UTC by KaySeeks »
Just somebody with a radio and a pair of headphones...

Offline redhat

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Re: does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a replacement for a IRF510
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2018, 0048 UTC »
I once heard (therefore it must be true ::) ) That the IRF510's were  out of tolerance IRF511's from the same wafer.  Rather than throw them away, they just packaged them and reduced the specs a bit.

+-RH
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WinRadio Excalibur/305 w/ a chi-town resonant loop, Kenwood KDC-U356 for mobile listening.
Please send QSL's and reception reports to xfmshortwave [at] gmail [d0t] com

Offline KaySeeks

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Re: does anyone on here know if an IRF610 is a replacement for a IRF510
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2018, 0302 UTC »
I once heard (therefore it must be true ::) ) That the IRF510's were  out of tolerance IRF511's from the same wafer.  Rather than throw them away, they just packaged them and reduced the specs a bit.

The downgrading process is certainly done extensively but I can't say for sure that it's done here.

Per this datasheet: http://www.qsl.net/n4xy/PDFs/Semiconductor_Data_Sheets/irf-510.pdf, it looks like if anything the 511 could be a downgrade of the 510 and not the other way around. Likewise the 512 and 513.

Contradicting what I wrote a few days ago, the 510, 511, 512 and 513 are clearly related. Not sure how much the 610, 620, 520 are related to this family.





Just somebody with a radio and a pair of headphones...

Offline ka1iic

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Thanks folks for all the replies :-)

This might send me into another direction but I'm still keeping it in the back of my noodle for brains hidie hole.

Yep something else has motivated me into another direction for the time being...  and to tell the truth I have so many other projects that need to be put into some sort of cabinet, that will keep me busy for awhile... after I drop all the antennas to check for problems in that situation...

anyway 73 to U all

vw
73 Vince
KA1IIC

"If you can't be anything, you can at least be annoying"

Troy, Ohio. 20m Vertical & low long wire E/W, Yaesu FT-187ND, SDRplay 2, Ratt Shack 2 meter rig, and other little bits of electronics I'm not talking about, homebrewed and otherwise... so there bleech!

Offline Stretchyman

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The direction is to Go GaN!

Forget the rest.

Str.
'It's better to give than receive' so why RX when you can TX!

                            Buy one from me, NOW!

Great discounts on ALL my transmitters if purchased via HFUnderground


                                              ;)

Offline redhat

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Diplomacy was never one of your strong suits, was it?

+-RH
Somewhere under the stars...
WinRadio Excalibur/305 w/ a chi-town resonant loop, Kenwood KDC-U356 for mobile listening.
Please send QSL's and reception reports to xfmshortwave [at] gmail [d0t] com