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Author Topic: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?  (Read 13541 times)

Offline alpard

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2020, 1016 UTC »
I would think that the BEST product means that it has good performance and  reliability and user interface .... etc etc, but also price is good.
I don't think they mean the best as some MAGIC wands stuff.

For example, if we look at NRD-545, it scores all the top on all the aspects, but it used to cost about 2k? Even used ones go for almost 1k easy.
For most average users of radio, it is out of their budget. So, maybe NRD 545 works best (I am not sure if it does actually), but price sucks, hence it cannot be the best radio.

But the 808 works well, and the price is good, hence it is affordable to most radio users. Hence it is the best radio?

From G8JNJ site, MLA-30 looks poor product from the test results, figures and the graphs. But then how on earth a very popular youtuber in the hobby comes out with the reviews like that? = MLA-30 works very well, as good as the 10 times more expensive loop antennas, and in some aspects, it outperforms the well brook, w6lvp and lz and all the rest?

From his radio reviews and other antenna reviews, he is not telling porkies in his reviews, and anyone would know that.

Anyway, that is why it is an interesting product. MLA-30 has been around for a while, and now it is time that users must see it for themselves, not just from youtube videos or on the sites figures and graphs, but the actual ability it pulls the DX signals from the noise.

If you are listening to mostly very strong signals not far away from you, then all this loops, verticals and outside TF2Ds, I mean they are not necessary. The builtin whip antennas will hear them very well with no extra cost, effort or space.  It is only when you are trying to listen to the faintest, weakest or rare DX, you need these extra efforts and expense and external space for the DX antennas.  So, no other criteria is more important than that, can the external DX antenna you just installed hear the faintest DX signals that you were trying to hear in real life SWling? Can it dig out the rare DX signals that you were looking for from the mush noise? - this is what really matters in judging any external / high performing DX antennas, I suppose. Hence the graphs, and figures and theories ... yeah, maybe these factors are what reflects the performance of the antennas, but does it really and truly reflect the real performance? I am not sure. I will find it out soon.

On the issues of the old analogue radios from Sony and Panasonic, yes, I think most of them are excellent radios, but as they are very old, most of them would have been developing some kind of faults in the parts. When it goes problematic, it would be impossible for ordinary users to repair them. Or if they get repaired and restored by the professionals, then it wouldn't be cheap. And there will be some parts which are no longer available too. So it is not 100% problem free option to get the old PLL radios with discrete ICs.

If they are older vintage radios with just transistors, caps, resistors and tubes, then they can be restored and repaired by the users with just DMM and soldering iron, and the parts are still plenty and cheap in the market. For that reason, and also sheer excitement of bringing back the old dead radios to life, I am passionate on the vinatge radio restoration :))

So, yeah, a little ideas and opinions on the subject from different people and angles, are always interesting to ponder :D
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 1841 UTC by alpard »
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Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2020, 1228 UTC »
I would think that the BEST product means that it has good performance and  reliability and user interface .... etc etc, but also price is good.
I don't think they mean the best as some MAGIC wands stuff.

For example, if we look at NRD-545, it scores all the top on all the aspects, but it used to cost about 2k? Even used ones go for almost 1k easy.
For most average users of radio, it is out of their budget. So, maybe NRD 545 works best (I am not sure if it does actually), but price sucks, hence it cannot be the best radio.

You're defining best as maximizing the performance to price ratio, not the performance, then. Not sure what you mean by "price sucks", other than it is/was expensive? That's because it costs more to produce a better performing product. An RTL dongle is cheap, but I am not sure anyone would call it the "best" radio  :D 

I had a 545 for many years, it was certainly an extremely good performing radio. Was it the best? Certainly not, some of the WJ products for example had even better performance. But they also cost more  :)

Quote
But the 808 works well, and the price is good, hence it is affordable to most radio users. Hence it is the best radio?

It's got (for some users anyway) an acceptable performance to price ratio. If you're a casual SWL, especially in a high noise environment, it may be the "best" radio for you, as a better performing (sensitivity, selectivity, image rejection, etc) radio may not be justified as you'll likely not be able to maximize its potential.  I cannot imagine any context however where it could simply be called the best radio, period.

Quote
From G8JNJ site, MLA-30 looks poor product from the test results, figures and the graphs. But then how on earth a very popular youtuber who is not a beginner or idiot in the hobby comes out with the reviews like that? = MLA-30 works very well, as good as the 10 times more expensive loop antennas, and in some aspects, it outperforms the well brook, w6lvp and lz and all the rest?

That's his opinion, based on use in his environment. G8JNJ OTOH performed some very rigorous testing and gave us quantitive results. The real test of course is to try each antenna on the air, comparing results from listening to a variety of stations. And again, it's gong to depend on your environment. For example, I live in a rural area on a relatively good sized lot with generally a low noise floor. Best for me is not going to be the same as best for you. Likewise the guys in the middle of nowhere in Finland laugh at my comparatively "high" noise floor and lack of space and can set up (and take advantage of!) Beverage antennas that are several thousand feet long.

I think the MLA-30 has generated a fair amount of "buzz" in the hobby, which accounts for its popularity. And if you're a casual SWL, especially one in a relatively high noise environment, it's probably going to give you an acceptable bang for the buck, if you cannot justify spending more for a Wellbrook/etc, or spent the time building your own active antenna (Crossed Parallel Loop with LZ1AQ amp for example), or of course better yet erecting a full sized passive antenna, which is most likely to truly be the "best" antenna, at least for some portion of the bands, but may be impractical or outright impossible due to lot size, restrictions, etc.

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Offline NJQA

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2020, 1416 UTC »
Well said Chris!

You have to take most of these product reviews with a grain of salt, particularly if you aren’t familiar with the reviewer.

And we all tend to hear what we want to hear in these reviews and ignore the rest.  The product reviews on eHam are a good example of that....or Amazon product reviews...  A significant amount of those are just “noise” and deserve to be ignored...or from people with an axe to grind...

As Chris points out, too little attention is spent on the environment that the reviewer is in.  If his local RF noise level is high, then a product that has a low SNR may be indistinguishable from one with a high SNR.  Or if someone lives on top of a mountain with low horizons in all directions, then most any antenna is going to deliver a lot of stations.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 1418 UTC by NJQA »

Offline alpard

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2020, 1539 UTC »


You're defining best as maximizing the performance to price ratio, not the performance, then. Not sure what you mean by "price sucks", other than it is/was expensive? That's because it costs more to produce a better performing product. An RTL dongle is cheap, but I am not sure anyone would call it the "best" radio  :D 

I had a 545 for many years, it was certainly an extremely good performing radio. Was it the best? Certainly not, some of the WJ products for example had even better performance. But they also cost more  :)


I don't know about RTL dongles at all, as I have not used them :D, but if you think about NRD545 from this day, you cannot deny that it is a grossly over priced product. What it is - I have had a few NRD receivers myself in the past = the 515, 525 and some of the marine models). They were nothing special or different from other receivers such as Trio R600, R1000 or YAESU FRG7000 in reception ability and quality. And the construction of the NRD radios are externally they are excellent with heavy metal casings, but internally they are just made of plug in PC boards just like your personal desktop computers in the 1980s and 1990s.  Surely these PCBs have been manufactured by automated system in the factories, and all of them depreciated the price to tens and hundreds folds. The personal computers prices plummeted rock bottom from about 20 years ago due to this situation, but the radio prices which used exactly same infrastructure haven;t. They had been priced still premium, and even now they are going for high prices in the used market.  So, if you are aware of this situation, it is natural to feel that their prices sucks compared to other products which uses plug-in PCBoards.

Are they super reliable or easy to repair or service? I don't think that is the case either. So they are not wise buy in my book.

For MLA-30, and all other similar type of antennas, I think they are designed to work good in RFI prone environment, and it is the one of the strengths of the mag loops? Otherwise, it does not have clear advantage over the traditional long wire in the back garden which costs less than a ten box or even less.

Yes, I do live in pretty bad RFI suffering residential area, so the HF receptions for the weak signals always been problematic, so will see if the Active Mag. Loop antenna will make any difference :)) For 29 Euro including delivery and all the fittings and 10m long coaxial cables with the antenna, I thought it could be an interesting experiment.

But the term BEST in reviewing a commercial product, I think it is a relative concept comparing with other products available in the market, considering all the aspects even the price and performance. There is no such as things as THE BEST product as such if we logically analyse the concept and the product, I suppose :D
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 1541 UTC by alpard »
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Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2020, 1632 UTC »
You have to take most of these product reviews with a grain of salt, particularly if you aren’t familiar with the reviewer.

And we all tend to hear what we want to hear in these reviews and ignore the rest.  The product reviews on eHam are a good example of that....or Amazon product reviews...  A significant amount of those are just “noise” and deserve to be ignored...or from people with an axe to grind...

Quite true. There's two (diametrically opposed) biases with respect to product reviews. If a customer is unhappy with a product, they're more likely to go and leave a negative review (this is quite common on Amazon, I take it into account when looking at the ratio of good/bad reviews).  Alternately, customers may want to justify their purchase, to themselves anyway, with a positive review.

Quote
As Chris points out, too little attention is spent on the environment that the reviewer is in.  If his local RF noise level is high, then a product that has a low SNR may be indistinguishable from one with a high SNR.  Or if someone lives on top of a mountain with low horizons in all directions, then most any antenna is going to deliver a lot of stations.

Let's go back and look at the review of the MLA_30 from https://www.g8jnj.net/activeantennas.htm

It's based off a TL592B video amp IC.  This is a very low cost IC, I just checked and they're $1 each at Mouser in qty 100 pieces.

The datasheet is here: https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tl592b.pdf?ts=1594483659234&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F

Likely it was chosen because it's a) dirt cheap and b) has a 50 MHz bandwidth, so it covers HF nicely.  But it's not a low noise amplifier, and as G8JNJ notes there's several design flaws in the circuit that result in low sensitivity as well as a high noise floor, he says 20 dB higher than other active antennas.

So yes, if you're using this in a high noise environment (apartment, condo, next door to the plasma TV factory, etc) you're probably not going to notice the issues, especially compared to a simple portable radio with a whip antenna. And there's the common belief that "more signal is better", so if it increases the S meter reading, it's got to be working. Rather than focusing on signal to noise ratio (which again may be indistinguishable in high noise environments).

The biasing tee has a 5 to 12 volt DC/DC converter with an attempt to filter the inherent RFI hash that the converter will produce, but at this point that's trying to re-arrange deck chairs on the Titanic. Again this is a cost savings measure (and perhaps perceived ease of use for the end user, they can just plug into a USB port for power) vs supplying a 12 volt linear supply, which is what you should be using to power an active antenna (and can obviously retrofit yourself).

Side Note: There's an old electronics term called Muntzing. I won't go into the history (but please, Google it, you will find it fascinating), but basically it is removing components / simplifying a design down to the absolute bare minimum that sorta works. OK, a little history... in the original case, it was making a TV back in the 50s that would work if you lived in NYC itself and could see the transmitting tower on top of the Empire State Building or wherever out your window, but that's about it.  Not sensitive, not very selective or resistant to interference, etc. But it worked. Mostly. The same thing is of course being done today with many products (you could make the argument that most of the Made in China junk on Amazon qualifies. Although some of it doesn't even mostly work).

Now, going in a completely opposite direction... The "youloop" from AirSpy for their AirSpyHF+ Discovery SDR: https://swling.com/blog/2020/03/the-airspy-youloop-is-a-freaking-brilliant-passive-loop-antenna/

Construction plans here https://swling.com/blog/2020/04/diy-how-to-build-a-noise-cancelling-passive-loop-ncpl-antenna/

This is a passive loop antenna. No moving.... err... active... parts. It makes use of the fact that the Discovery is a very sensitive receiver, so you don't need to amplify the signals received by the loop antenna. Any amplifier adds some noise (or a lot of noise if you use the wrong amp IC), so this approach avoids that.

I've not built one myself as I have no interest in an indoor loop antenna. But I have used my Discovery with an outside passive loop antenna, and it works splendidly. Not as well as a full sized HF antenna of course, I do not expect it to. So I expect similar performance from a youloop, scaling for size, and of course worse noise levels if you use it inside the house where it is going to pick up all sorts of RFI from your computers and such. The XHDATA D-808 seems to sell for about $110, the Discovery is $169. So for about half again as much more money, you're going to end up with dramatically better performance, obviously with the compromise of needing to tether it to a computer and not use it as a portable.

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Offline alpard

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2020, 0904 UTC »
Anyway, the vendor has shipped MLA-30 to me, so it will be here soon. Hopefully it shouldn't take too long :D

But for passive antennas and active antennas, from my own experience in SWL/BCL, it is not always the case that one type antenna is better than the other. Same with Indoor and Outdoor antennas, it depends on the propagation path at the time.  Some times I couldn't hear a station on my external long wire, but could hear it on my indoor whip or loop antenna and same with the passive and active antennas.

Sometimes, no antennas be it external or indoors, active or passive, none of them could hear the station, but by standing up with the portable radio with its whip extended to full, and walking around in the room could hear the station at the point in the space.  So I feel that it is always good to have as many type of different RX antennas possible and trying out with them all for the DX signals that you are after, and select the best antenna for the reception at the time.  That has been my approach to SWL/BCL and selecting antennas on HF. In my book, it doesn't matter what the antenna is made of, or what the glorious figures and graphs it has shown from the tests. If it cannot hear the DX station I am after, then it must be committed to flames. :D If it hears the stations, then they are the antennas to stay :D

Just as a matter of interest, Chris, could you hear the Radio Zambia from Lusaka on 5915 kHz on any of your antennas on everyday? How is the reception? Which of your antenna hears it with the best signal?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 0913 UTC by alpard »
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Offline alpard

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2020, 1740 UTC »
I was asking about the Radio Zambia NBC 1 from Lusaka, because it seems one of the toughest signals to receive here on any antennas and radios. If your are in NA, and EU or Northern Asia = Japan Korea Russia China, and can receive this signal on 5915 kHz, then I would like to know what antenna was used and and which receiver. Because that would be an interesting criteria for having a go with the similar set up here.
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Offline redhat

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2020, 1804 UTC »
Quote
I don't know about RTL dongles at all, as I have not used them :D, but if you think about NRD545 from this day, you cannot deny that it is a grossly over priced product. What it is - I have had a few NRD receivers myself in the past = the 515, 525 and some of the marine models). They were nothing special or different from other receivers such as Trio R600, R1000 or YAESU FRG7000 in reception ability and quality. And the construction of the NRD radios are externally they are excellent with heavy metal casings, but internally they are just made of plug in PC boards just like your personal desktop computers in the 1980s and 1990s.  Surely these PCBs have been manufactured by automated system in the factories, and all of them depreciated the price to tens and hundreds folds. The personal computers prices plummeted rock bottom from about 20 years ago due to this situation, but the radio prices which used exactly same infrastructure haven;t. They had been priced still premium, and even now they are going for high prices in the used market.  So, if you are aware of this situation, it is natural to feel that their prices sucks compared to other products which uses plug-in PCBoards.

I'm not sure where this axe-grinding has its roots, but it seems unfounded to me.  The 545 was a top of the line receiver in its day, and had a price tag to match.  Because they were relatively rare, they are still expensive.  Plug in cards were the professional way of doing things and keeping the footprint down.  Most everything else from that era was a one-board-wonder, like my R8B.

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Offline alpard

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2020, 1956 UTC »


I'm not sure where this axe-grinding has its roots, but it seems unfounded to me.  The 545 was a top of the line receiver in its day, and had a price tag to match.  Because they were relatively rare, they are still expensive.  Plug in cards were the professional way of doing things and keeping the footprint down.  Most everything else from that era was a one-board-wonder, like my R8B.

+-RH

No no, nothing to do with axe grinding. This is a radio forum, not tool forum :D

Yes, they are very good receivers, but from my experience of owning the NRD radios = 515, 525 and a Marine model, they really didn't offer me anything special in term of reception quality.  When there were RFI and QRN in the house, they were very very noisy, and it was difficult to listen at nights.  I let them go in the end, having lost interest on SWL/BCL hobby. But they were bloody expensive at the time. 

The high price of them, I felt I couldn't justify.  And I am not sure if they are still producing the NRD radios now.  But for me, plug-in module type radios are like also for reducing the cost of them, because they can mass produce them in the factory in very quick time. All the electrical and computer devices in this type of construction have come down in price by tens and hundreds of folds but the performance hiked to tens and hundred folds too. But the NRD radios haven't.  They are still keeping high price in the used market = this is maybe due to rarity factor? as you pointed out, rather than the performance or any other aspect?
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Offline redhat

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2020, 2027 UTC »
Plug-in cards were usually used for serviceability, and the ability to add more functions in a limited space.  Look at any piece of professional broadcast gear, processors, routers, and the like all make use of plug in cards.  Most of the film audio equipment I've run across in the past was build this way as well.  Outside of WJ or Harris, this was an uncommon thing in the HF equipment world, as these were all commercial class receivers.  I imagine this was one of the design criteria for the NRD stuff, although I've never had the chance to see one in the wild.

Just a guess....

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Offline alpard

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2020, 2138 UTC »
Of course mate, not questioning the plugin module design advantage on the serviceability and performance and standardisation and all the rest of it. But the price of them went down too.  If you were around buying computers in the 1990s, you will recall how much the miserable pentium and 486 386 PCs used to cost with the plug-in boards for the graphic and sound cards and modems etc. They used to cost 2k and 3k at the time for 1x PC with just 2-3 plug in modules into the motherboard.

But with the mass productivity, now what? They cost less than a fiver maybe? Or no one really want to even take them for free? And the plug in cards and boards were piling in the recycle places like mountains and mountains.
So, naturally the NRD radios price must have come down logically, but they haven't due to collectability and rarity? That was just passing guess, but just 2 cents of opinion. It doesn't matter, if one like it, and keep it and used them for SWL/BCL no matter how much they have paid for it? So be it.  I like my D-808 and old Heathkit receivers for just fun, but these old radios and D-808  does what all other high grade radio do, as long as they are fed with the right antenna for the propagation path of the signal. :)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 2140 UTC by alpard »
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Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2020, 2217 UTC »
Of course mate, not questioning the plugin module design advantage on the serviceability and performance and standardisation and all the rest of it. But the price of them went down too.  If you were around buying computers in the 1990s, you will recall how much the miserable pentium and 486 386 PCs used to cost with the plug-in boards for the graphic and sound cards and modems etc. They used to cost 2k and 3k at the time for 1x PC with just 2-3 plug in modules into the motherboard.

But with the mass productivity, now what? They cost less than a fiver maybe? Or no one really want to even take them for free? And the plug in cards and boards were piling in the recycle places like mountains and mountains.
So, naturally the NRD radios price must have come down logically, but they haven't due to collectability and rarity? That was just passing guess, but just 2 cents of opinion. It doesn't matter, if one like it, and keep it and used them for SWL/BCL no matter how much they have paid for it? So be it.  I like my D-808 and old Heathkit receivers for just fun, but these old radios and D-808  does what all other high grade radio do, as long as they are fed with the right antenna for the propagation path of the signal. :)

You cannot compare the cost to manufacture a computer vs a high end communications receiver. Your desktop PCs are being produced in annual quantities several orders of magnitude higher. With substantially different components.  Apples and oranges.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 2222 UTC by ChrisSmolinski »
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Offline alpard

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2020, 2249 UTC »


You cannot compare the cost to manufacture a computer vs a high end communications receiver. Your desktop PCs are being produced in annual quantities several orders of magnitude higher. With substantially different components.  Apples and oranges.

Computer was just an example of the high priced electronic devices made of plugin module boards, but the main topic was the plugin board designed electronics devices in general, be it high end communication receivers or computers.  And the high end communication receivers with the plugin module boards are strictly speaking in its construction, a type of computer with an operating system and ROM chips inside with just some RF boards added to it, which evolved into full blown SDR.
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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2020, 2302 UTC »
Wow, that is quite a discussion.   Here's my 3 cents.   The NRD receivers were near the top of the heap -- especially 515 and the 545, though the last in the line (545) had to the ears of some still some audio harshness issues.   I still have tow 545s and they are like riding in a Maserati.   Similarly, the JRC marine radios NRD-93 and up are like a ride in a sports car (though the NRD-630, very rare -- went to DSP like the WJ 8711). 

As for antennas, I have not used a MLA-30 -- I use a Wellbrook 1530 (the older LNP) and a W6LVP.   I hope to test the W6 with a MLA amp box -- so far the W6LVP has been the most quiet, though at some points needs a boost from a RPA-1 or other amp box.

If the MLA-30+ gets anywhere near the W6LVP, that is quite an accomplishment for a cheap, mass-produced made-in-China loop.
Dan in Potomac, MD (USA)  eQSL to:  dxace1@gmail.com

Receivers: Skanti R-8001, WJ 8718AMFP/8711A/8709/8712P, JRC NRD-630/301A/93, NRD-505/545/515, Drake R8/8B/SPR-4/R-7A, RFT EKD-515, ITT MacKay 3041A, McKay Dymek DR33-C6, AEG 1800/3, Racal RA-1792, Cubic 3280/2400, R&S EK-056/070/085/896/200, ICOM 71A/8500/8600/9000, Elad DuoR, AOR 7030, Lowe HF-250, Ten Tec RX-350, Yaesu FRG-8800/100, Collilns 51S-1

Offline East Troy Don

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Re: The Best Active Loop Antenna 2019 = MLA-30?
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2020, 2317 UTC »


For example, if we look at NRD-545, it scores all the top on all the aspects, but it used to cost about 2k? Even used ones go for almost 1k easy.


If you can find a JRC NRD-545d for $1,000 please let me know .
Thanks
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 2319 UTC by East Troy Don »
Primary: Yaesu FRG-7700  Secondary: ICOM R75 Tertiary: Grundig  750. Tecsun PL-990X, Tecsun PL-880 . Malahit DSP SDR V3,  Alpha Delta  SWL Sloper antenna. : Also, 1940 Mantola am/sw tube. CountyComm GP-5/SSB hand held, Tecsun PL-380 ,et al.  QTH: EAST TROY WI  USA.  Sea Level: + 320 meters .  75 miles (but not far enough) NNW of Chicago

 

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