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Author Topic: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection  (Read 573 times)

Offline Beerus Maximus

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Might we see a new shortwave station in Illinois? Chris will be thrilled to learn it plans to broadcast in DRM!

http://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/headlines/proposed-shortwave-station-in-illinois-prompts-an-objection
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Offline jFarley

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2020, 1720 UTC »
Yippee!  Only about 10 miles from me, so I doubt I will need to put up an end fed dipole to hear this.
Joe Farley, Near Chicago
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Offline ThaDood

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2020, 1850 UTC »
Really??? In Illinois? You'd think that to better cover Europe that they would want to be located in the East Coast, and not in the Mid-West. Still, interesting, if the station is allowed to come on-air for DRM.
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Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2020, 1853 UTC »
Really??? In Illinois? You'd think that to better cover Europe that they would want to be located in the East Coast, and not in the Mid-West. Still, interesting, if the station is allowed to come on-air for DRM.

The whole point here is minimizing total transmission delay time. They want to be as close to the Chicago Mercantile Exchange as possible. 
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Offline East Troy Don

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2020, 1933 UTC »
Just what the World needs - another megawatt Bible-thumper.
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Offline N0TLD

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2020, 0700 UTC »
Just what the World needs - another megawatt Bible-thumper.

Right, my thoughts exactly. Oh goodie for us.

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Offline NJQA

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2020, 1222 UTC »
15 KW seems low for a serious SW broadcaster.  But maybe not inappropriate for a HFT data broadcast using log periodic beams for a point to point circuit.

Are DRM transmissions low enough latency to be consistent with high frequency trading requirements?

I’ve wondered what part of the FCC rules they were going to apply for a license under.  They certainly aren’t aeronautical or maritime and an experimental license no longer worked once they became operational.  Maybe this is their path.

Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2020, 1252 UTC »
15 KW seems low for a serious SW broadcaster.  But maybe not inappropriate for a HFT data broadcast using log periodic beams for a point to point circuit.

Are DRM transmissions low enough latency to be consistent with high frequency trading requirements?

I’ve wondered what part of the FCC rules they were going to apply for a license under.  They certainly aren’t aeronautical or maritime and an experimental license no longer worked once they became operational.  Maybe this is their path.

I suspect 15 kW is enough with directional antennas on each end of the circuit. I suspect they should be able to transmit their data payload over DRM without too much of an additional delay, they probably have figured that part out already.

There used to be allocations for fixed services like the old point to point telephone services, but perhaps licensing for that no longer exists? You'd think if there was something else they could use, they would have done that, before going down the SWBC/DRM route.

Honestly, if this keeps them out of the 43m/utility/other fun bands, fine with me.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2020, 1731 UTC »
Not only does propagation delay make an impact but interleaving and/or fec in the signal will also add delays, however minor they may be. S4285, what drm is based on as I recall, has some interleave/fec modes that can cause several seconds of delay.

https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_es/201900_201999/201980/03.02.01_60/es_201980v030201p.pdf.
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Offline redhat

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2020, 1748 UTC »
I suspect it will be something that looks like DRM but isn't.  In that regard, any sort of COFDM modulation could be used, most likely with LDPC or similar error correction to keep the delays down.

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Offline Azimuth Coordinator

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2020, 2001 UTC »
I can't see how this is going to be fast enough for trades.  Most Data Center locations are based on fiber latency and it used to be in Milliseconds Now It's in Microseconds. it won't be long until it's in Nanoseconds. Even Microwave would be faster for trading.. So there must be something more to it.

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Offline redhat

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2020, 2031 UTC »
I'd like to see a microwave shot across the Atlantic...  My guess is that the accrued latency in passing through the various networks is longer than a direct HF circuit.  If they were smart, they would just run their own fiber across the pond and be done with it.

To me its all a reminder that the game is rigged, and those with deep pockets will find ways to screw the little guy.

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Offline OgreVorbis

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2020, 2133 UTC »
The whole point here is minimizing total transmission delay time. They want to be as close to the Chicago Mercantile Exchange as possible.

That's exactly it. There was a story, not sure if it was posted here or if I read it elsewhere, where some guy discovered someone that purchased an old cell tower in Chicago and attached a SW antenna to it and were using it for this purpose. They weren't a licensed SW broadcast station, but rather a ham guy or maybe even a pirate - can't remember.

In addition, I wonder how they got the approval for less than 50kW. That is the minimum power for SW broadcasting in the US. I actually looked into starting a SW station once and was turned off by the high minimum power requirement.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 2138 UTC by OgreVorbis »
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Offline redhat

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2020, 2330 UTC »
...In addition, I wonder how they got the approval for less than 50kW. That is the minimum power for SW broadcasting in the US. I actually looked into starting a SW station once and was turned off by the high minimum power requirement.
CFR 47 part 73.751;
Quote
§ 73.751 Operating power.

No international broadcast station shall be authorized to install, or be licensed for operation of, transmitter equipment with:

(a) A rated carrier power of less than 50 kilowatts (kW) if double-sideband (DSB) modulation is used,

(b) A peak envelope power of less than 50 kW if single-sideband (SSB) modulation is used, or

(c) A mean power of less than 10 kW if digital modulation is used.
[70 FR 46676, Aug. 10, 2005]

+-RH
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Offline NJQA

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Re: Proposed Shortwave Station in Illinois Prompts an Objection
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2020, 1244 UTC »
I can't see how this is going to be fast enough for trades.  Most Data Center locations are based on fiber latency and it used to be in Milliseconds Now It's in Microseconds. it won't be long until it's in Nanoseconds. Even Microwave would be faster for trading.. So there must be something more to it.

tAC

Raft Technologies claims “milliseconds of advantage between exchanges oceans apart”.  Signals that travels through a medium like fiber or processing equipment will do so at “slower than the speed of light in a vacuum”.  The radiowave path is traversed at the speed of light.  Latency accumulates, so the more equipment and fiber they can cut out of the path by going direct, the greater the possible advantage.