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Author Topic: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?  (Read 2284 times)

Offline myteaquinn

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First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« on: July 16, 2020, 2232 UTC »
I belong to a group that is aviation related and the other day one of the members posted some interesting photos. The following two photos really interest me. If anyone can shed some light on them I would greatly appreciate it, I would also like to send that information back to the other group.

Here are the photos with their related Flickr page with a larger picture available.




https://www.flickr.com/photos/142209609@N05/50109653571/





https://www.flickr.com/photos/142209609@N05/50109894382/



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Offline Token

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2020, 1630 UTC »
In the forum these were originally posted in, are there any images showing the engines?  And if so, could you see added flame dampers on the exhaust?

Over the years I have seen a few images of Catalinas with extensive antennas like that.  I am not sure that was a specific configuration for something like C&C.

Off the top of my head this looks kind of like one of the VP-11 Black Cats, although I thought those were a bit darker.  They had a couple of PBY5 Black Cat Commands.  Alternately, VP-54 and VP-72 had some Black Cat Ferret ELINT aircraft, the Cast Mike #1 team and others.

Shoot me a PM with the name of the other forum, I am always up for an aviation related forum I might not already be a member of.  Or if I am a member a thread I missed.

In the mean time, I will check some books in my library here.

(edit)  On second thought, this looks like a fairly standard and typical color scheme and antenna configuration for several Patrol aircraft of both VP-14 and VP-44 in early WW II, there is an image of a VP-14 aircraft (BuNo 2418, VP-14 Patrol 2) at the Pearl Harbor amphib ramp in early December, 1941 that could easily be this aircraft.  Not the same image at all mind you, but the colors, antennas, and ramp look about right.

T!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 0438 UTC by Token »
T!
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Offline Josh

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2020, 2042 UTC »
I wonder if this was a relay craft, with battles taking place hundreds of miles from the home carrier force and hf hit or miss at that distance, a v/uhf relay would fill the gap.

This was common in the ETO (European Theatre of Operations) where missions over Germany and many other countries of similar distance to England would necessitate a v/uhf relay.

In such cases, a pair of fighters would be sent to orbit offshore northern Europe, providing a radio relay between command and the units over the target with very good success.

A pby would have much longer duration on station than a fighter and provide more comfort and amenities to the crew in this duty, as well as afford the means to recover airmen when possible.
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Offline Token

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2020, 2205 UTC »
OK, further research.

This aircraft is BuNo 8191, a PBY5A.  I have not been able to find out where the picture is, I initially thought maybe Pearl, but North Island or one of the Pacific islands seems more likely.  I have not been able to figure out which unit(s) the aircraft was attached to.

This is one of the Sea Cats, not the Black Cats, although their antenna configurations are essentially the same.  The Black Cats would probably (most of them, but not all) have different antennas forward.

This antenna configuration was common for aircraft that were used in a long range patrol application.

Basic, early war, PBY-5A configuration for long range patrol.  The antenna configuration was used until the end of WW II (and after), but became less common as the war went on.  The color combination was used by several different units.

T!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 0243 UTC by Token »
T!
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Offline Traveling Wave

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2020, 0224 UTC »
PBY antenna information like the one pictured is discussed at this site.....http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=524687
Location: Western New York ( Niagara Frontier)
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Offline myteaquinn

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2020, 0252 UTC »
Thank you for the information Token and Traveling Wave.
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Offline Token

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2020, 0437 UTC »
Interesting.  If that is a Sterba for a radar that would explain why their numbers diminished as the war went on.  As higher frequency, shorter wavelength, radars developed they would shift away from using such antennas.

That would also explain why I see so many pictures of those antenna equipped PBYs in VP squadrons, the long range patrol squadrons tasked with finding things like submarines.

Early war I can find pictures of at least 20 or 30 different BuNos with antennas like this.  I suspect there were a lot more, since the available public image catalog is far from exhaustive.

Looking at the images the wire segments look to be less than 4 feet long.  That would fit for a VHF radar, as several of the early airborne radars were.  The ASB, the ASV, ASV Mk II, etc.  Most every antenna I have seen associated (in documentation) with those radars were fixed dipoles or yagis.  But there is a specific entry in "When Computers Went to Sea" that discusses the problems with the early Sterba antenna and the ASV radar, specifically, the antenna and the radar were each not designed to work in the same frequency range.  The radar was at 176 MHz (this would indicate an ASV Mk II radar was installed) and the antenna was at 246 MHz (maybe designed for an ASB or very early ASV radar).  The fix of these antennas took place in early 1942, one source indicates January, 1942.  Initially 12 aircraft were fixed, then the fix pushed out to others in the fleet.

T!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 0446 UTC by Token »
T!
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Offline Traveling Wave

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2020, 2105 UTC »
PBY5-5A aircraft used ASV radar, information source is Pacfic War On-Line Encyclopedia...http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/b/PBY_Catalina.htm

 A quick summary of British ASV radars  .....A notable improvement was achieved with what called Long Range ASV. LRASV was based on the second antenna configuration developed. It was a sideways-looking system. The transmitter was an array of ten dipoles, installed in five (later reduced to four) pairs on top of the fuselage of the aircraft. The receiving antennas were Sterba arrays, fitted to the sides of the fuselage. Because the transmitter array was a dipole array 18 feet long and the two receivers were arrays 12 feet long, a much better resolution and range could be achieved. The first installation was on a Whitley bomber, in late 1939. LRASV had a range 2.5 times better than the forward-looking system; it could detect submarines at 10 to 15 miles.... source of information is...https://uboat.net/allies/technical/uk_radars.htm

Token, the summary states...ASV Mk.II  Developed at the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough in early 1940, ASV Mk.II differed from Mk.I mainly because it was properly engineered, and therefore much more reliable. Although called a 1.5m radar, it actually used 1.7m (176MHz). Range was up to 36 miles. :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 2109 UTC by Traveling Wave »
Location: Western New York ( Niagara Frontier)
Radio :TS480 with RTL-SDR pan-adapter, HDSDR software, Omni-Rig Control, Zenith T/O R600,T600
Antenna: 40m dipole, 20-17-15 meter fan dipole. One of N. Tesla's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools - from Epitaph by King Crimson
eQSL appreciated KC2ZYL@gmail.com

Offline Token

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2020, 2152 UTC »
Token, the summary states...ASV Mk.II  Developed at the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough in early 1940, ASV Mk.II differed from Mk.I mainly because it was properly engineered, and therefore much more reliable. Although called a 1.5m radar, it actually used 1.7m (176MHz). Range was up to 36 miles. :)

Yeah, the early ASV radars (like the Mk I) were a bit higher in frequency, above 200 MHz.  The ASV Mk II was 176 MHz.  The ASV Mk III was a mixture of freqs, starting with prototypes using the 176 MHz transmitter of the Mk II, but production versions ending up at much higher frequencies, up to 3 GHz.  I mean the first 3 GHz Mk IIIs were made by replacing the VHF transmitter of a prototype Mk III.  The Mk III had a very fractured history and documentation on it can be contradictory.

The excerpt of "When Computers Went to Sea" that I quoted makes it sound like maybe, just guessing here, the early PBY-5As were intended to have the ASV Mk I (probably the American made version, SCR-521 or ASE), and the antennas were built for that, and then ASV Mk II was installed and it was not originally realized there was a frequency mis-match.

I am fortunate enough that when I entered the field (in the 1970's) a lot of the "old hands" had first hand WW II radar experience or had been trained by those people.  I actually have a lot of hands on time with WW II radars, land based, sea based, and airborne.  Unfortunately, when I had the access I did not understand the history, and it was not until later when I started putting what I had been exposed to with what I could find in print.  SCR-584, SCR-720, APG-2, APS-6, and ASV Mk III are a few of the WW II era radars that I have had exposure to at one time or another.  But of those only the SCR-584 was in its WW II configuration, the others I was exposed to were all modified / adapted in some way to another application.  For example, the APS-6 and the SCR-720 were both used mounted on trucks when I saw them.

(edit)  Looking at the MIT Radlab series of books Volume 1 discusses the American made version of the ASV Mk II.  For the Army it carried the designation SCR-521, and for the Navy it was called the ASE radar.  This book also confirms that the ASV Mk II / SCR-521 / ASE were 176 MHz, it also states that the earlier ASV (I assume Mk I as it says no Mk number) was "near 200 Mc/sec".

T!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 2227 UTC by Token »
T!
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Offline pinto vortando

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2020, 1730 UTC »
Token,
Just curious, you mentioned encountering  "old hands" with WW II experience...
there were a few of those guys left in the reserves back in the early 70s,
were you perhaps in a naval reserve squadron back then ? 
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Offline Token

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2020, 1953 UTC »
Pinto,

No, I was active duty in the late 70's and 80's.  However, before I went in the service I did some work in radar development, some of the folks at that company (and the civil servants they interfaced with) were retired mil going back to WW II.  Later, in the 80's, I went to work for a facility that had a lot of interesting radars and countermeasures gear on hand.  And again, some of the people at that facility had worked in the field since the late 40's, none of them had WW II specific experience, but immediately post WW II and Korean War was not uncommon.  Some of the external SME's we brought in were directly involved in radar development during WW II.  70+ year old guys with 45-50 years experience, having started at the infancy of radar, and lots of interesting stories.

Like I said, unfortunately I did not realize at the time how much history I was hearing and being exposed to, and how little of it is formally documented.

T!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 1954 UTC by Token »
T!
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Offline pinto vortando

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Re: First Navy Command and Control Aircraft?
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2020, 2255 UTC »
Token,

Unfortunately that generation is mostly gone and their stories with them.
My father and uncles as well as some of my electrical mentors were WW II vets.
Their sea stories (some involving PBYs) were probably a big influence on my decision to enlist.
Initially worked on C-54s (formerly R5D)  and while the planes were WW II vintage,  the radio gear, although all tube,
was probably newer post war construction.
Anyway, you were fortunate enough to encounter some of the history, the gear, and the stories.
 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 2257 UTC by pinto vortando »
Das Radiobunker somewhere in Michigan

 

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