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Author Topic: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?  (Read 5989 times)

Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2020, 1437 UTC »
I have two suggestions (well two and a half):

1. Build a crossed parallel loop using a LZ1AQ pre-amp. I built one several years ago, and for the size it works extremely well. The LZ1AQ amp is well designed and is going to have much less overload and added noise issues than the video amp that comes with the MLA30 & friends. Yes, it's going to cost considerably more that what you have now, but it's also going to work a lot better. It's even directional on MW and LW. If you search here on the HFU you will find posts about mine as well as links to blog posts where I detail the construction.

1b. Alternately you can start small by getting the LZ1AQ amp and connecting a single small (say 1 meter in diameter) loop, or a pair of small loops, which is going to take much less construction time.

The next question is what receiver to feed this into. You said you have an FRG-7? That may be your best bet (of the radios you have now), assuming it is working correctly Portables, as well as portables masquerading as communications receivers, have their own issues which several of us have detailed in this thread (and maybe others, I have lost track).

2. Get an AirSpyHF+ Discovery and build/buy a YouLoop or similar. Not an SDRPlay. Not some Chinese "16 bit A/D" SDR we know nothing about. An AirSpyHF+ Discovery.

Of course these lead to:

3. Build a crossed parallel loop and connect an AirSpyHF+ Discovery to it :) I've done this myself, and actually run the loop *without a preamp* and just connected it to the Discovery, using a transformer. It worked amazingly well.
Chris Smolinski
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Offline alpard

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2020, 1950 UTC »
Thanks for your suggestions. 
But I have purchased the MLA30 after seeing this youtube review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4G71UrANtA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB8RBEI-1xk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNN6T4C4dRk

It is supposed to be the best Active Loop Antenna on the market 2019 :)
Again it is not the best, but I don't want to spend more money on the antenna at present.

So, right now I am just trying to stick with it for a while.
It seems that it could be improved by playing around with the location and height and the length of the element as well.

And for AirSpy, I am not sure if it is a good buy at this point in time.
I read that some people had experience of it dying after less than a year of use.

And the new SDRs are coming out in the market, so it is maybe time to sit and wait?

And on the building these preamps and stuff, I was into the DIY kits and building things before, but I stopped it now. Because when you build these things, you loose time to listen to the actual radio, and end up just fiddling with the kits spending a lot of time on it.
I now decided just sit and play with the radio when I have spare time. :D

But thanks for your suggestions. Much appreciated.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 1956 UTC by alpard »
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Offline ThaDood

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2020, 2150 UTC »
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, yeah... I could see not wanting to spend time on kits, when you could be DX'ing. Then again, look at the experience that you gain 1st hand from building your own stuff, then document it to either repair later, (When necessary.), or to add a modification to it. BTW, using that "S" meter in that FRG-7, (Or as we use to call it, The FRoG-7.), is a nice visual indicator to use. So, I'm with Chris on that one. That, and if I remember right, the RF Gain is very useful there as well for incoming signal tests on that rig.
I was asked, yet another weird question, of how I would like to be buried, when I finally bite the big one. The answer was actually pretty easy. Face-down, like a certain historical figure in the late 1980's, (I will not mention who, but some of you will get it, and that's enough.) Why??? It would be a burial that will satisfy everyone: (1) My enemies will say that it will show me where to go. (2) On the same point, I can have my enemies kiss my butt. (3) It will temporarily give someone a place to park a bicycle. See??? A WIN / WIN for everyone.

Offline RobRich

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2020, 0332 UTC »
The big issue for weak signal work with the FRG-7 is the very wide stock filter(s). Great for broadcast radio audio quality. Not so great for digging signals out the noise floor. It does at least have a potentially useful selectable attenuator, plus its Wadley loop circuit design still is subjectively better than even many modern superhet portables.

BTW, be careful with static discharge into the FRG-7. I recently had to replace the front-end FET in mine. It is a common issue, especially since the original FET lacked internal diodes for static protection. There are newer equivalents and compatibles, but I managed to find a new-old-stock 3N211 that was the recommended replacement back in the day. Includes integrated diodes, too.

----------------

Alpard, you might not need an active antenna at all, particularly if targeting the tropical bands. I suspect your wire antenna(s) have more than enough gain for the purpose. If the noise floor appreciably increases when hooking up the antenna to the receiver for the desired band, then you likely have enough viable SNR to start hunting and listening.

Curious, do you have a balun, choke, etc. on the passive longwire antenna? If not, I suggest winding or buying one. A basic 9:1 balun for a random length longwire can be purchased for like under $15 on eBay. There might be better ratios for your particular antenna, but 9:1 is a good generic place to start for receiving longwires. It should help limit common mode noise if nothing else.

----------------

I live in Florida next to the tropics, complete with routine thunderstorms, static crashing, etc. The below link is a quick video of the 80m amateur radio band taken earlier tonight using a Airspy HF+ Discovery and a mere 9' vertical ground mounted over just four 9' radials. No preamp, yet note even it has more than enough gain for the purpose. My larger 31' vertical should increase the detected signal strengths, but SNR likely would be similar since it would increase the noise floor as well, so it largely is a wash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG0WvQuNiVc
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 0347 UTC by RobRich »
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Offline alpard

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2020, 0918 UTC »
FRG7 doens't have RF Gain control, but a selector for DX LOCAL and NORMAL.   Depending on the incoming signals, it is very effective sometimes. But when I was repairing and DIY making stuff, I couldn't find the time for actual BCL / SWL at all. I concluded that I must do just one thing, because time is not allowing for doing various other stuff in life. DIY and Repair work could be fun and rewarding I suppose, and if one can do it very quickly in no more than an hour for finishing the repair or build, that's ok.   But in my case it went on and on, and in the end, many projects just kept piling not getting finished off :(  At the point, I just stopped doing it altogether, and now try not to get my hand dirty with DIY or repair stuff, if I am not sure how long it will take, or if I could just buy the new stuff for cheap.

Yes, I am very conscious of the the static noise damages to the front end, and whenever I change the antenna, I ensure the radio is off. But then there is also static noise problems when the neighbours use their electrical tools such as the angle grinder, electric drills and saws.  And when my daughter and XYL use the food processor and grinder in the kitchen, the high level of statics can kill the front end of my radios :(  I quickly switch the radio off, and so far there were no static damages to my radios.

I was also thinking about the balun, and I could make one for 4:1 because it can be made without the ferrite core, just by using a plastic tube from youtube and it looked simple and cheap enough.  But for 9:1 balun, I think I must buy a ferrite core which is not cheap.

I try to use simpler and cheaper and older equipment and device for my SWLing and DXing, because it is just my hobby :)
And OK, if I had my court settlement from the inheritance this year which had been going on for last couple years started by my stepmother and brother, then I will get hold of some substantial amount of funds, and will be getting all these high grade receivers and antennas and filters in the new radio room - I am  going make one in the corner of the garden.

But before that, I must try keep frugal with all the expenses and should not just keep buying new devices just because the MLA30 is not working for my DXing right now  or AirSpy is supposed to be good etc. :)

Anyway, I think MLA30 will work well for DXing, but it needs to be set properly with the height and ideal spot in the location and also the element could be adjusted for the band that I am wanting the DX signals monitored.  And this is just part of the fun in the hobby. If all was just hunky dory easy and no problems due to having used the most expensive devices in the market, maybe at that point, the fun could disappear. :)

I wonder if 4:1 balun could be also effective on RX in HF.  And my wire antenna is now in loop configuration. I added some more wire, and made into a delta shape, and I am using also the AMECO PCL-2 loop tuner. This AMECO loop tuner is very powerful device. It is a preamp, but also active antenna. It can really increase the gain of the wire loop.  It makes the weak signals a lot more readable state. But even with this I couldn't copy the DX signals on the tropical band last night.

With the MLA30 on horizontally set on the ladder, the MW images all disappeared, but there is some static noise on the 4-5 Mhz.
But it copied signals on 80m ham band really well.  There were some signals not audible on the wire loop and Amoco,  when changed over, the MLA30 copied with 59+, I couldn't believe it.  Anyhow, the 4Mhz tropical band got very noisy as the night got late. It sounded exactly same as the 6m and 2m band is just about open with the Aurora.  Very loud band noise were all over the band, but it was getting too late, and no signals were heard. I thought maybe another hour, when it is 2-3 am in the morning, some DX signals might appear, but I was damn tired as it was getting well past 1am, so just went to bed.

I have been to Florida many times years ago, when my parents used to live there in Orlando, and there are some of my relatives still in Orlando. At the time we drove to Tampa, Miami and Fort Larudale and Key West, and toured the Hemingway house etc. It was a great time.  When we stopped by the beach in Tampa, there were some huts and wood stove in there, and we had barbecues and drinks ... :))  Good memories in there.  But yeah, I do appreciate your comment on the static noise in Florida, because it had sometimes very severe rain with thunder and lightening suddenly. Here where we are in UK, we just get drizzling rain a lot but thunder and lightening is very uncommon thankfully.  It happened a few week ago, and it was bad. Even a few hours before the actual thunder and lightning were coming to my area, the HF was very noisy and couldn't hear much. I left all the radios unplugged from the mains for the night. There is usually weather warnings for sever thunder and lightening from the weather centre but still have to be aware of it all the time I suppose. One of the Karma stuff of SWL. :)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 1554 UTC by alpard »
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Offline alpard

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2020, 1026 UTC »
Managed to pick up a rare DX with the MLA30+ last night albeit very weak signal, I could hear it.

It is Radio Logos from Peru Txing with 1 kW and distance from me is 12,000 km. Not bad with a 29 Euro active loop antenna :D

https://twitter.com/Radio0Play/status/1300372125673549824
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 1028 UTC by alpard »
ICOM R71E, Lowe HF-225, YAESU FRG100, TECSUN PL-330, PL-320, XHDATA D-109, D-808, MSi001 SDR, AOR AR3030, Sangean ATS803, ATS-909X, Antenna= Random Wire+ATU, Active Miniwhip

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Offline NJQA

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2020, 1253 UTC »
Managed to pick up a rare DX with the MLA30+ last night albeit very weak signal, I could hear it.

It is Radio Logos from Peru Txing with 1 kW and distance from me is 12,000 km. Not bad with a 29 Euro active loop antenna :D

https://twitter.com/Radio0Play/status/1300372125673549824

Hopefully you actually had an ID.  Your Twitter video posting had no intelligible audio.

Offline alpard

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2020, 1342 UTC »
Managed to pick up a rare DX with the MLA30+ last night albeit very weak signal, I could hear it.

It is Radio Logos from Peru Txing with 1 kW and distance from me is 12,000 km. Not bad with a 29 Euro active loop antenna :D

https://twitter.com/Radio0Play/status/1300372125673549824

Hopefully you actually had an ID.  Your Twitter video posting had no intelligible audio.

True. It was just trace of weak chorus in the fading signal.  But I was sure it was the signal, because I heard some other SA stations on the other frequencies on 4885  4775 very strong last night.  The path was open.  But Radio Logos TXing with 1 kW, I was only grateful to get the glimpse of the signal :))

It is regarded as not copyable signal in Europe in normal situation due to the distance and its TX power, no matter  even when the highest grade antennas and receivers are used. I would have thought something is not right, if the RL signal were stronger and more intelligible than that, when copied in utmost northern Europe using a 29 Euro MLA30 Active Loop Antenna and Tecsun Radio. :))  Not knocking down on the equipment, but there is no record of reception on the Radio Logos signal in whole Europe, I tried to search. It is just a couple of same fuzzy noise reception videos from whole Europe available in the search. If you were copying it from America, Afria or Australia or even in Asia, maybe it could be different story.

Even if the signal was strong, I wouldn't understand a word they are saying mostly, because I don't understand Portuguese or Spanish, so not sure if I could catch the ID.   usually I just check it on the SW schedule site, or WRTH or with Google and that's it.   But next time, I will try check going to one of the KiWi SDR in the country or continent where the TX signal is coming from.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 1433 UTC by alpard »
ICOM R71E, Lowe HF-225, YAESU FRG100, TECSUN PL-330, PL-320, XHDATA D-109, D-808, MSi001 SDR, AOR AR3030, Sangean ATS803, ATS-909X, Antenna= Random Wire+ATU, Active Miniwhip

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Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2020, 1444 UTC »
Hopefully you actually had an ID.  Your Twitter video posting had no intelligible audio.

Quote from: alpard
True. It was just trace of weak chorus in the fading signal.  But I was sure it was the signal, because I heard some other SA stations on the other frequencies on 4885  4775 very strong last night.

Quote from: alpard
It is regarded as not copyable signal in Europe in normal situation due to the distance and its TX power, no matter  even when the highest grade antennas and receivers are used.


You believe you received a low power Latin American station, that apparently has never been logged before in Europe, using a MLA30 antenna and Tecsun receiver?
Chris Smolinski
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Offline alpard

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Re: Ideal height and polarisation of MLA30 for best DX performance?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2020, 1508 UTC »
Hopefully you actually had an ID.  Your Twitter video posting had no intelligible audio.

Quote from: alpard
True. It was just trace of weak chorus in the fading signal.  But I was sure it was the signal, because I heard some other SA stations on the other frequencies on 4885  4775 very strong last night.

Quote from: alpard
It is regarded as not copyable signal in Europe in normal situation due to the distance and its TX power, no matter  even when the highest grade antennas and receivers are used.


You believe you received a low power Latin American station, that apparently has never been logged before in Europe, using a MLA30 antenna and Tecsun receiver?

Never said that. I said, the Radio Logos from Peru with clear intelligible signals videos copied from Europe is not coming up on the Google search.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 1647 UTC by alpard »
ICOM R71E, Lowe HF-225, YAESU FRG100, TECSUN PL-330, PL-320, XHDATA D-109, D-808, MSi001 SDR, AOR AR3030, Sangean ATS803, ATS-909X, Antenna= Random Wire+ATU, Active Miniwhip

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