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Author Topic: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...  (Read 2020 times)

Offline Looking-Glass

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Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« on: April 08, 2017, 0749 UTC »
Here in Australia there are thousands of Asian voices on SSB from 3MHz through to 16MHz and beyond, propagation permitting.  Many are fishing vessels, and many are illegal operators using continuous coverage transmit transceivers for "local business" communications.  

I read somewhere that the Indonesian authorities are cracking down on illegal "village transmitters" used for idle chit chat and comms across Indonesia.  Last year I read on the ICAO web site that illegal Asian radio operators spread all over HF are causing interference to HF aviation frequencies with the safety factor being raised.

The main languages I come across are Indonesian, Chinese (both Mandarin & Cantonese), Vietnamese, Filipino and a few others I cannot identify, probably from Laos, Cambodia and Burma etc.  

So while Portugese and Spanish speakers across HF appear to be problems in Europe and North America we in Australia have the Asian version.  

As for drug runners, they are probably there too, but I would think most would use more elaborate communications such as Blackberry mobiles and the internet and other comms routed through satellites with encryption.

To think over 20 or more years back there was concern about "Freebanders" operating 25 to 29MHz, well they were nothing compared what we are all saddled with today. :'(
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 0753 UTC by Looking-Glass »
Hermitage Flat, NSW.

Grid Square:  QF56dm.

Yaesu FT-2000D, ICOM IC-736 HF/50MHz, ICOM IC R75 & Tecsun S-2000 to 450 feet of wire, and a multi band vertical of dubious reliability.

Offline Josh

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 1501 UTC »
Wonder if there's some abu sayaf/isis comms in the mix.
Conveniently located near Vincennes Indiana.

Offline R4002

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2017, 2031 UTC »
I imagine its a mixture of modern "modern" communications methods (such as the Internet, encrypted cellular/mobile devices, satphones, etc) and HF/VHF/UHF. 

I know drug runners (in the past) made extensive use of HF marine frequency bands (and the "traditional" freeband spectrum, that is, the areas above and below the regular ham bands) so I'm sure there's still some of that going on, especially in more remote areas where even a hopped up 10 meter export radio wouldn't be enough. 

When you think about the flood of open-banded Chinese VHF/UHF gear, its surprising that a lot of the comms you're talking about are for "local business" communications still.
U.S. East Coast, various HF/VHF/UHF radios/scanners/receivers

Offline Looking-Glass

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2017, 0445 UTC »
R4002: The last three major drug busts at Australian ports have originated in China, nearly one ton in a shipping container detected at Port of Melbourne last week, origin was China.  So no doubt the radio spectrum would probably play some role in the scheme of things.

Late last year three yachts were also busted trying to bring cocaine into Australia from South America.  Two didn't make it here, one intercepted in French Polynesia and the other in Fiji. So you are pretty spot on suggesting the marine HF frequencies would be at play too.  

Being well cashed up the drug lords would have nothing but the best in comms, plus using old fashioned HF as part of the ploy to throw authorities off the trail.  

We too, as monitors of the radio spectrum play a role too, last year I picked up some "weird conversations" on 8MHz SSB at 2.00am in the morning my time with coded type language (English) being used.  I immeadiately contacted the authorities in Canberra alerting them in the instant.  

The "weird conversations" vanished a week later.  The authorities informed me that at any time I come across some "out of the ordinary" not to hesitate ringing them straight away on the 24 hour hot line.

As for ISIS and other Middle Eastern Islamic radical groups, most of the intercepts made by authorities here in Australia have been done via monitoring the internet, chat groups, links and Facebook etc.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 0447 UTC by Looking-Glass »
Hermitage Flat, NSW.

Grid Square:  QF56dm.

Yaesu FT-2000D, ICOM IC-736 HF/50MHz, ICOM IC R75 & Tecsun S-2000 to 450 feet of wire, and a multi band vertical of dubious reliability.

Offline R4002

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2017, 0645 UTC »
R4002: The last three major drug busts at Australian ports have originated in China, nearly one ton in a shipping container detected at Port of Melbourne last week, origin was China.  So no doubt the radio spectrum would probably play some role in the scheme of things.

Late last year three yachts were also busted trying to bring cocaine into Australia from South America.  Two didn't make it here, one intercepted in French Polynesia and the other in Fiji. So you are pretty spot on suggesting the marine HF frequencies would be at play too.  

Being well cashed up the drug lords would have nothing but the best in comms, plus using old fashioned HF as part of the ploy to throw authorities off the trail.  

We too, as monitors of the radio spectrum play a role too, last year I picked up some "weird conversations" on 8MHz SSB at 2.00am in the morning my time with coded type language (English) being used.  I immeadiately contacted the authorities in Canberra alerting them in the instant.  

The "weird conversations" vanished a week later.  The authorities informed me that at any time I come across some "out of the ordinary" not to hesitate ringing them straight away on the 24 hour hot line.

As for ISIS and other Middle Eastern Islamic radical groups, most of the intercepts made by authorities here in Australia have been done via monitoring the internet, chat groups, links and Facebook etc.

Australia being an island nation is in a unique position when it comes to monitoring.  It sounds like you've got some high-end monitoring capability and it sounds like you're using its full potential.  Did you ever find out what the coded English language traffic in the 8 MHz band was?  What frequency was it?  

On top of using the traditional [read: legal] HF marine bands and the non-traditional [read: freebands / out of band frequencies], the drug traffickers have another advantage.  It wouldn't be too difficult to assign code words that make use of fishing terminology as to camouflage drug smuggling related radio communications to sound like regular fishing fleet radio traffic.  In a world where using encryption more or less equals "I have something to hide", innocent sounding communications are probably treated with much less suspicion.  Another interesting thought that applies worldwide, especially considering the seemingly-unlimited Spanish and Portuguese voice traffic heard all over HF in the Western Hemisphere and the seemingly-unlimited Asian and Russian voice traffic heard all over HF in the Eastern Hemisphere (and, in the case of Russian language radio traffic...the Western Hemisphere as well).

Apparently 25-30 MHz is the de facto standard Russian taxi cab dispatcher radio band now.  When 11 meters is open, CBers (and hams using 10 meters) have major problems with Russian taxi interference (almost always using FM mode too) booming in on basically every frequency available on the now-standard Chinese-designed "export" radios flooding the market.  Before it was 25.615 to 28.305 MHz, or 25.165 to 28.755 MHz if you had a real fancy radio...now its 25.615 to 30.105 MHz, 25.165 to 29.695 MHz or even 24.265 to 30.555 MHz.  

Things in Russia have gotten so bad that the Russian government has changed the CB radio rules from two sets of 40 channels [FM only] to six sets of 40 channels [AM/FM], and even this isn't enough.  When CB traffic moved up towards 27.86 MHz or so, the taxi companies either went further up in frequency (into 10 meters) or further down in frequency (below 26 MHz, possibly into 12 meters.)

Former Russian CB Plan:

FM mode only.

Russian/Polish "R" Raster or "zeros" - 26.960 MHz - 27.400 MHz [40 channels]
European "E" Raster or "fives" - 26.965 MHz - 27.405 MHz [40 channels]

The former plan effectively gave 80 channels at 5 kHz steps, the European channels are considerably more popular in Russia compared to the "zeros", however the "R" channels or "zeros" are still heavily used

Current Russian CB Plan:

AM and FM modes allowed by law.  SSB illegal but not enforced.

Russian Raster/Zeros:
B Band - 26.510 MHz - 26.950 MHz [40 channels]
C Band - 26.960 MHz - 27.400 MHz [40 channels]
D Band - 27.410 MHz - 27.850 MHz [40 channels]

European Raster/Fives:
B Band - 26.515 MHz - 26.955 MHz [40 channels]
C Band - 26.965 MHz - 27.405 MHz [40 channels]
D Band - 27.415 MHz - 27.855 MHz [40 channels]

The current plan provides for a total of 120 channels if 10 kHz steps are used or 240 channels if 5 kHz steps are used.  Even with all these legal channels now available in Russia, interference on frequencies above 27.86 MHz and below 26.5 MHz is a major problem.  Buy a "multi-norm" CB radio in Europe, select the "RU" or "Russia" country setting in the radio's menu and it gives you 25.615 MHz to 30.105 MHz in 5/10 kHz steps right out of the box.  

----------
But I digress...  I'm sure you have similar issues with broadbanded 25-30 MHz radios operating out of Asian locations too...


Now that 11 meters isn't consistently providing the long-distance propagation it was a few years ago, I have a feeling a lot of the users who were using freeband 11/10 meter gear have moved down to the lower frequencies.  
U.S. East Coast, various HF/VHF/UHF radios/scanners/receivers

Offline Looking-Glass

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2017, 0847 UTC »
R4002: The frequency detected and reported to authorities was 8.170MHz USB.  I checked the ACMA (Australian Communications & Media Authority) spectrum license data base before I contacted Canberra, the ACMA turned up nothing that would indicate that 8.170MHz was allocated to an Australian operator.  The two ops were Australian and clearly up to something, no names, no call signs mentioned.  In the early stages I dismissed it as a trucking company or fishing company but things just didn't add up.  I monitored 8.170MHz 48 hours continuous at one stage to catch them talking and then reported them to Canberra.

The Russians are seldom heard here due to propagation decline on the higher bands, only Asian rabble.  Interesting you mention Russians, just the other night I was tuned into three Russian men chatting away on 5.150MHz USB with a lot of laughing and carry on.

In the 1980's I had a Superstar 360FM which was very similar to a Cobra CB, the Superstar went from 25 to 30MHz in four stages with SSB/AM/FM and CW modes.  Also in the late 70's onwards the Redco DigiScan was a popular add on to the standard 40 channel CB radio expanding the coverage from 26-29MHz in 5KHz steps.  Although both the Digiscan and the Superstar radio were illegal in Australia people still imported them, mostly from Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore via mail order unchallenged.  From the early 80's onwards any 11m pirate worth his salt operated an amateur radio transceiver modified for 27MHz transmit.

A lot of neighbouring Asian countries use 25-30MHz illegally for inter village communications, taxi cars, courier companies, fishing boats, trucking companies and bus companies etc.  Just a free for all.  Usually they are on AM mode, but some do get on FM.  The SSB traffic is big between 3-16MHz, the section 7 to 12MHz is just cluttered from one end to the other with Asian voices chatting away on SSB.

Those Chinese radio's you mention are just spurious and harmonic radiating junk boxes of very poor quality but they are cheap and readily available, hence strong market demand.

Still lots of good listening on HF despite many ditching radio for more modern forms of communications.

Hermitage Flat, NSW.

Grid Square:  QF56dm.

Yaesu FT-2000D, ICOM IC-736 HF/50MHz, ICOM IC R75 & Tecsun S-2000 to 450 feet of wire, and a multi band vertical of dubious reliability.

Offline R4002

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2017, 1515 UTC »
8170 kHz USB, interesting.  So it wasn't just people using it for "outback" communications?

In regards to the Superstar 360FM, that's a great radio.  I've got an original-run Superstar 3900 as well as a Cobra 29XLR (Japanese made) with DigiMax Lite (Australian frequency kit) added to it. 

I also have a modern Chinese box, a CRE 8900 that covers 28000-29700 [Band A] or 25615-30105 [Band B].  It is a DIN-sized version of the famous (infamous) AnyTone AT-5555 series of radios (which includes about a dozen different clones/rebranded versions of that radio as well as the smaller updated versions such as the AT-5555N and AT-6666.  The CRE 8900 performs just as well as my Icom IC-707 base station radio and I consistantly get amazing reports of its performance, especially on SSB.  My Superstar 3900 also rocks on SSB...once its warmed up for 10 minutes or so that is.  For AM work I have a modified Galaxy DX 959 [with an Astatic M6B amplified power microphone and an Astatic 636L noise cancelling microphone as well as a Lescomm 120 channel kit that gives me 26510-27860, three sets of 40 channels].  The nice thing about the Galaxy and Cobra radios is they look and feel completely stock - no random holes drilled in their cases, no extra switches, etc.

You're right about 11 meter operators switching from export gear/modified CB gear to full HF coverage ham equipment.  I have a feeling a lot of the Spanish language traffic heard on 11 meters during band openings is coming from guys running modified HF equipment - which is why they have little issue going down to 6900 kHz, etc, when 11 meters isn't doing well.  The 25-29 MHz "free for all" you speak of holds true in the Americas as well.  There's a taxi dispatcher on 26905 kHz and 27515 kHz that comes in so consistently that I use her as a band opening indicator!

Now that 11 is not nearly as good as it was, the 6-7 MHz range has come alive.  

« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 1753 UTC by R4002 »
U.S. East Coast, various HF/VHF/UHF radios/scanners/receivers

Offline Looking-Glass

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2017, 0646 UTC »
R4002: Some good equipment there, I gave CB and 11m DXing away around 25 or more years ago.  The 70's and 80's were the times when the equipment was quality, and the big 27MHz base stations of that era. 

Propagation was great, I had just short of 300 DXCC countries confirmed on 11m.

These days I mainly listen to HF and 90% of the time on CW mode, chasing NDB's and military CW stations M89 plus Russian cluster beacons etc. 

Not real active on amateur radio much as I have DXCC Honour Roll on the big five HF bands, WARC bands need some more effort but propagation has gone way way way down in past two years.  Used to be active from overseas countries too on amateur bands, Pacific mostly with Bahrain as well.  Cannot be bothered travelling any more.

Also run 50MHz with 75 DXCC confirmed, six has been very down in past couple of years plus chasing Grid Squares on six too keeps a spark in the hobby.

Went to a radio field day back in February and seen the old 40 channel Pearce Simpson Super Panther for sale $150 with red channel readout, a few tables down a chap had a 23 channel Super Panther with green channel readout, it was marked "make me an offer".  Also spotted the chrome faced Cobra of the days gone buy, 138GTL I think? Another blast from the past was a Galaxy Saturn base for sale $350, looked in very good condition.

Could spend hours discussing the "good old days" eh? 8) :D

Hermitage Flat, NSW.

Grid Square:  QF56dm.

Yaesu FT-2000D, ICOM IC-736 HF/50MHz, ICOM IC R75 & Tecsun S-2000 to 450 feet of wire, and a multi band vertical of dubious reliability.

Offline R4002

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2017, 0649 UTC »
We certainly could.  There's something to be said for the older-generation CB/11 meter export equipment, but the modern generation Chinese equipment is catching up.  Slowly, but it is catching up. 

I spend most of my radio time on VHF/UHF and what I'm not spending on VHF/UHF I'm spending chasing down "rare" signals on HF (I'm including 11 meters under "HF").  Sometimes its a lot more fun to find an illegally-operating fishing fleet than it is to find a ham station running 1500 watts into a beam antenna on 20 meters :D
U.S. East Coast, various HF/VHF/UHF radios/scanners/receivers

Offline Looking-Glass

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2017, 2317 UTC »
R4002: Pearce Simpson had a solid reputation in the early days of CB radio in Australia, remember the words "Gladding Corporation" on the front of the older sets, a sign of quality.  Cobra, Kraco, Midland, President (another top brand well regarded which became Uniden over here), Galaxy, Layfayette...what a trip down memory lane, quality radio's coupled with solid and sturdy construction, go for ever.  Well before crud emitting spurious ridden glut boxes from China.

Taiwanese made CB gear in the 70's and 80's had a good reputation too, they copied many of the top American gear, Superstar was pretty close to a Cobra in looks and performance at a fraction of the price.  A bit like the car industry back then when the Japanese were knocking off American and European know how, look at them now?  Toyota is one of the worlds best selling brands, then the Koreans got in on the act and achieved similar success. 

Australia also has an 80 channel UHF CB band, not a lot of people on that, mainly used by small business etc as it's free for any one.  There are some repeaters channel's 01 to 07.

I used to be active on 144.1MHz CW and SSB many years ago chasing Grid Squares but gave it away and dropped down to 50MHz. 

Utility DXing is better fun, I post most of my loggings on the dxworld.com/swbblog.html there used to be a few people posting there in the past but the big decline in propagation has seen many disappear.

Been getting an interesting path to the Caribbean here most mornings my time on 8.918MHz USB via the long path, hear a few aircraft calling New York, New York is always so weak. 2100-to around 2220z is the best time for this.  I go to Flight Tracker and see where the actual aircraft is and it's details. 

Last year I logged JJY Time Signal on 40KHz and 60KHz in mid to late March which was a very good catch of around 8,000kms around 1600z which is in the very wee hours of the morning here.  Not repeated this year though which shows how poor propagation has become. My elevation and just over 300 feet of wire sure helps, also increases the noise.
Hermitage Flat, NSW.

Grid Square:  QF56dm.

Yaesu FT-2000D, ICOM IC-736 HF/50MHz, ICOM IC R75 & Tecsun S-2000 to 450 feet of wire, and a multi band vertical of dubious reliability.

Offline R4002

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2017, 0405 UTC »
One of my first radios was a Pearce Simpson "Super Cheetah" 40 channel AM/SSB mobile.  What a great radio that was.  President equipment is still sold in Europe and is now recently available in the USA (again) as well.  I used to have a Superstar GR (re-branded President Grant) with low-mid-high bands AM/FM/SSB and a 6-digit frequency counter.   The radio did 26.515-26.955 MHz (low), 26.965-27.405 MHz (mid) and 27.415-27.855 (high) with amazing modulation.  I ended up selling it and buying a Taiwanese Superstar 3900...even though the Superstar GR/President Grant was also made in Taiwan...I wanted a radio that did 25615-28305 instead of 26515-27855.  

There's a lot of Latin American taxicab companies (and of course trucking companies everywhere) that like to use the lower frequencies.  The lower bands are also very popular with hunters in the USA.  In fact, Ranger/RCI made two radios called the Connex Deer Hunter and Connex Coyote Hunter.  The Deer Hunter did 26515-27855 AM/FM with high/low power switch (Ranger knew most hunters are connecting their radios to amplifiers) and the Coyote Hunter did 25615-27405 (so 3 bands of lower channels and the regular CB band as the highest band).



I live in a state where deer and duck hunting is extremely popular.  Most hunters have export radios and VHF marine radios installed in their trucks.  Hunters illegally using the VHF marine channels is a significant problem.  I've heard the US Coast Guard get on VHF marine channel 16 and tell hunters to vacate the frequency because they were causing interference to the marine emergency frequency.  During deer hunting season I can scan the VHF marine channels and hear traffic on 5-10 channels at once, all of the traffic being hunting clubs talking to each other. 

It's interesting that you mention 8918 kHz USB.  Have you tried the other, lower frequencies for New York Radio?  Those in the 5-6 MHz region? What about the US Coast Guard stations NMN (Chesapeake, Virginia), NMG (New Orleans, Louisiana), NMC (Point Reyes, California), NOJ (Kodiak, Alaska) and NMO (Honolulu, Hawaii)?

I hear NMN and NMG on a daily basis, frequencies and schedules can be found here: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/hfvoice.htm


I'm surprised the Australian UHF CB band isn't more popular.  The 22 channel FRS/GMRS "combination radios" are very popular in the USA, and even though licenses are required to use the GMRS channels and to transmit more than 0.5 watts on FRS channels 1-7, the vast majority of users aren't licensed and FCC enforcement is basically zero.  GMRS repeaters can be found in almost every city in the USA, with some cities having multiple repeaters on the same channel.  

Since FRS/GMRS are the American version of a "UHF CB" service, the American Multi-Use Radio Service (MURS) could be referred to as "VHF CB".  Due to the heavy pirating of VHF business band frequencies by unlicensed users, the FCC released 5 frequencies to the general public for unlicensed use.  Unlike FRS/GMRS or regular 26-27 MHz CB, MURS allows use of AM, FM, and various digital modes and is heavily used for short-range data links as well as on-site communications at schools, construction sites, etc. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 0420 UTC by R4002 »
U.S. East Coast, various HF/VHF/UHF radios/scanners/receivers

Offline Looking-Glass

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2017, 0558 UTC »
R4002:The problem with the lower bands is the high noise level this way.  San Fransisco is often heard on the aviation frequencies below 8MHz.  WLO marine CW marker is heard regularly on 6 and 8MHz CW.  Honolulu Volmet is another plus the Canadian Volmet are regulars this way.  NMN has been heard here giving out weather, I think on 6MHz or maybe 4MHz, cannot remember. NMG and NMC not heard likewise KOJ.

I use CHU Time Signal from Ottawa on 3.330MHz as an indicator on how the band is, it's a regular here just on the evening Grey Line.

The only problems with illegal intruders over here is on the 2m amateur bands where Rock Climbers and Hang Glider people use the channels, the authorities have removed quite a few over the years.

OK on the shooters, America seems to have a big gun culture, or obsession with firearms.  In Australia the law is very strict on firearm ownership.  There is a thriving black market with illegal pistols and military style rifles being smuggled in from abroad and sold to gangs, drug people and motor bike mobsters.  The gun laws are pretty tight so there are not too many shoot ups here, only gangs fighting amongst themselves.

American shooters would have a field day over here in the mountains where I live, no shortage of feral goats, pigs, dogs and cats plus plenty of foxes.  Now and again the authorities let professional shooters into the national parks and clean up a few.  Out in central Australia feral horses, buffalo and camels are a huge problem, especially the camels.

In the years passed you used to have to have a radio amateurs licence to buy any transmitting device from a radio retailer, that has fallen away, you can roll up with a fist full of cash and buy what you like these days!

Will check out the link for those coastguard stations and tune about and seen if I can hear them.  Thanks for that.

Just logged NMN on 6.501MHz & 8.764MHz 1115z tonight plus NMG on 8.502MHz at 1117z tonight.  8)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 1124 UTC by Looking-Glass »
Hermitage Flat, NSW.

Grid Square:  QF56dm.

Yaesu FT-2000D, ICOM IC-736 HF/50MHz, ICOM IC R75 & Tecsun S-2000 to 450 feet of wire, and a multi band vertical of dubious reliability.

Offline R4002

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2017, 1141 UTC »


Just logged NMN on 6.501MHz & 8.764MHz 1115z tonight plus NMG on 8.502MHz at 1117z tonight.  8)

Glad to hear it.  NMN on 6501 USB and 8764 USB is a powerhouse signal, same with NMG on 8502 USB.  That's what, halfway around the world propagation?  Close to it, especially for the NMN transmitter. 

The next thing to try and do is hear the various New York Radio HF-SSB aeronautical communications:

 3016  5598  8906  13306  17946  21925
 2962  6628  8825  11309  13354  17952  21964
 2887  3455  5550  6577  8846  11396
 5520  6586  8918  11330  13297  17907  21985
U.S. East Coast, various HF/VHF/UHF radios/scanners/receivers

Offline Looking-Glass

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Re: Asians 3-16MHz and beyond...
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2017, 1047 UTC »
R-4002:  Thanks for the additional listings, only have to find the time to check them out.  

8.918MHz USB on my morning Grey Line opens to the Caribbean area and the aircraft are quite readable most mornings, however, New York is seldom heard, can hear the aircraft working New York but rare to hear it, if I do it's very weak indeed.

NRV Guam Island logged on 6.501MHz at 0930z, very weak here 3X5 at best, hard to get out of the noise, so another one off the list.  NMC Point Reyes logged at 1030z on 4.426MHz 5X8 report.

A good one this way is Tokyo on 4.666MHz USB, good signal and usually quiet busy.  One of the only aircraft frequencies on 4MHz in this region.

Tuned around today and the band was totally dead from 28MHz through to 16MHz, weak Chinese shortwave and Korean maritime markers on CW, other than those...dead.
Hermitage Flat, NSW.

Grid Square:  QF56dm.

Yaesu FT-2000D, ICOM IC-736 HF/50MHz, ICOM IC R75 & Tecsun S-2000 to 450 feet of wire, and a multi band vertical of dubious reliability.