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Author Topic: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please  (Read 41277 times)

Offline Mixer

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Re: UNID PIP 6370 kHz 0316 UTC 20 May 2018
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2018, 1319 UTC »
This signal has been pip'ing away all day.

I took some time this morning to take some measurements on the signal.

Pulse width is approximately 16ms - measured multiple times between 16 and 16.6 ms, depends on what you consider the start and finish. Most consistent results were using my FT-950, AGC off, NB off, bandwidth 2400hz, IPO on (preamp OFF), and in AM mode. (first image).

Assuming the UNID PIP is synced to UTC and using my GPSDO as my local reference were it's 1 PPS was fed into the receiver antenna I measured a delta T of 4.760 ms.  Again, assuming the UNID PIP is synced to UTC that would give a range of approximately 1427 km or  770 nm. Methodology as to receiver settings as noted above (second picture)

I plotted the 1427km on google earth but the image to large to include with this post so it will be in a following post.

cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada

Have you tried your GPSDO timing offset technique on time signals from known transmitters? Perhaps WWV on 5000? It would be a good way to validate if the derived range to the unknown emitter is reasonably accurate.



Location: Upstate New York (Southern Tier) Grid FN12
SDRs: RSP1A, ANAN 10E, Airspy R2, Airspy HF+
Analog Receiver: Drake R8B
Antennas: 80 meter dipole, Wellbrook AL1530LN Loop

Offline GC

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Re: UNID PIP 6370 kHz 0316 UTC 20 May 2018
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2018, 1440 UTC »
Yes I have, every time I make measurements on the UNID PIP.

In fact, I can use WWV for which I know precisely the distance between myself and their transmistters to correct my time offset for one reflection off the ionosphere. WWV is close enough that I don't imagine that the 5 or 10 MHz signal is ever a ground wave signal nor subject to more than one "reflection".

Using that as a reference, I can apply the same measured vs real offset to apply a correction to the UNID PIP which would make the distance calculated for the UNID PIP more realistic with respect to signal having one "reflection".  In the previous posting in this thread I DID NOT however apply that correction.

And, this is of course assuming that the UNID PIP is indeed synced as precisely to UTC as my GPSDO.

What we really need is to have several stations making similar measurements at the same time and using TDOA we could better zero in on the TX location without assuming the UNID PIP is synced to UTC.

There have been a number of thread on some of the online forums on this signal. This is a recent one on qrz.com

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/time-signal-intruder.614510/

where someone mentions that a listener in Illinois was receiving this signal very well WITHOUT an antenna connected to his radio.

My google earth snippet with the red ring puts the rings West of Illinois but if corrected using my WWV measurement at the same time would put that line much closer.

I will check my notes and make a new with that correction and post it later.

cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada



Offline Token

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Re: UNID PIP 6370 kHz 0316 UTC 20 May 2018
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2018, 2109 UTC »

Have you tried your GPSDO timing offset technique on time signals from known transmitters? Perhaps WWV on 5000? It would be a good way to validate if the derived range to the unknown emitter is reasonably accurate.

I am going to pretty much repeat a lot of what GrahamC said, sorry, I typed it and responded before I saw his response ;)  That will teach me to read to the end of the thread before I respond, but my phone showed your post as the last one on the page...  DOH!

With these kinds of range rings the derived range to the unknown signal is only accurate assuming the start time of the unknown pulse is triggered by / simultaneous to the GPS time.  However, if you do know the start time of the pulse, for example if the pulse is triggered with minimal delay from a UTC disciplined source, then the total range, including ionospheric reflections, will be included.  It is physics, and pretty easily defined.  The delay behind UTC second will be equal to the distance radio waves travel in that time.

You will also have to account for any delay your radio puts in the signal, and this can be a sticky issue, as DSP radios can have highly variable delays.  SDRs are even worse.  But the technique of feeding your 1 PPS reference into the antenna normalizes the delays.  I do not do that, however I use analog receivers with fixed delays, and I have characterized the delays of the receivers in each mode/filter/decay/etc setting, so I know the delay through the receiver.

If two people get timing on this type of signal (simultaneous with UTC second) it will result in two range rings, one from each receive source.  Those two rings will intersect in two places, roughly the two possible source locations.  Add a third person and all three range rings will intersect in only one place.  There will be variables in each range ring.  For example, if one person is far enough from the source to be receiving via double hop, and the other two are single hop, then the plotted position will be shifted in a direction away from the double hop receive location.  But, if all three are the same number of hops away it is possible to get some pretty accurate results, not down to city blocks but down to a few tens of miles are quite easily possible.

Using this technique, and treating such known location signals as WWV as "unknown" sources, we have been able to get results inside 25 miles of the actual location.  This with receive locations more than 1000 miles away.

Several of us here on HFU have been playing with a similar GPS derived timing technique to DF targets for a few years.  Including targets that are not triggered by / simultaneous to UTC second.  With such targets you use TDOA (Time Difference Of Arrival) to plot curves, vs range circles, but the idea is pretty much the same.

T!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 0259 UTC by Token »
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline GC

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Re: UNID PIP 6370 kHz 0316 UTC 20 May 2018
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2018, 1534 UTC »
For what it's worth, I corrected my earlier calculation using my timings on WWV and re-plotted a range ring for the UNID PIP from my location in Eastern Ontario.

I also plotted a range ring for a measurement noted by Token and using his approximate location in the Mojave Desert and corrected for one propagation hop.

These distances are of course ASSUMING that the UNID was synced to UTC.

cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada

Offline Mixer

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Re: UNID PIP 6370 kHz 0316 UTC 20 May 2018
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2018, 2108 UTC »
The northern crossing of the range rings appears to be in a very sparsely populated section of western Ontario, CA. The southern crossing looks to be generally in the vicinity of Paducah, KY.

As you said, the accuracy of the technique depends on whether the mystery pulses are indeed synced to UTC. Iím now shopping for a GPSDO, as I find the whole idea of doing these sort of timing measurements very intriguing. Among other receivers, I do have a Drake R8B with purely analog IF which should negate the delay issue.

I have also just put a Wellbrook AL1530LN loop in service on a rotator. Though it would not have the ultra sharp nulls at 6-7 MHz that it does at LF and MF, might still be able to get a general idea of azimuth to these pulses if I catch it on air. (Have not heard them yet).
Location: Upstate New York (Southern Tier) Grid FN12
SDRs: RSP1A, ANAN 10E, Airspy R2, Airspy HF+
Analog Receiver: Drake R8B
Antennas: 80 meter dipole, Wellbrook AL1530LN Loop

Offline GC

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Re: UNID PIP 6370 kHz 0316 UTC 20 May 2018
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2018, 0012 UTC »
I did some simple TDOA calculations using my measurements and those posted by Token. Not surprisingly with only two data points the calculated position of the UNID PIP is geometrically in the center of the overlapping area of the two range rings I plotted earlier.

cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada


Offline Token

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Re: UNID PIP 6370 kHz 0316 UTC 20 May 2018
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2018, 0019 UTC »
The northern crossing of the range rings appears to be in a very sparsely populated section of western Ontario, CA. The southern crossing looks to be generally in the vicinity of Paducah, KY.

As you said, the accuracy of the technique depends on whether the mystery pulses are indeed synced to UTC. Iím now shopping for a GPSDO, as I find the whole idea of doing these sort of timing measurements very intriguing. Among other receivers, I do have a Drake R8B with purely analog IF which should negate the delay issue.

I have also just put a Wellbrook AL1530LN loop in service on a rotator. Though it would not have the ultra sharp nulls at 6-7 MHz that it does at LF and MF, might still be able to get a general idea of azimuth to these pulses if I catch it on air. (Have not heard them yet).

The issue with small loops and direction is they do not DF skywave signals well.  Often the nulls are nice and sharp, even at 6-7 MHz, but only for direct path and groundwave signals.

T!
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline Token

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Re: UNID PIP 6370 kHz 0316 UTC 20 May 2018
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2018, 0021 UTC »
I did some simple TDOA calculations using my measurements and those posted by Token. Not surprisingly with only two data points the calculated position of the UNID PIP is geometrically in the center of the overlapping area of the two range rings I plotted earlier.

The most probable general location would be near one of the two intersection points.

T!
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline CaptnKliegle

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All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2018, 0034 UTC »
Just happened to catch the pips on 17M.

Only heard it for few minutes, weak here in NH, but just after local sunset at 0020UTC
Found it on ~18.066 and also on ~18.120

Same pattern as the others, usually 7 pips then change freqs. Sometimes missing on or two, but seen on an adjacent frequency.

Round and round we go...

73  Kriss
Seacoast of NH  RXR's =3 X SDR-iq's, 1 x SDRPlays, and 11 AirspyHF+'s . TXR's = 2 X TS-590S,  ANAN200D, 2 x IC-7300's, IC-7610, 2 X IC-7100. Antennas = Resonant wire dipoles, 120' end fed wires, or 2 X SteppIR 3 ele beam @ 70' fixed NE/SW directions. Also host Remotehams.com servers (RX/TX) as well as SDR Console servers V3.xx (RX Only) too!

Offline CaptnKliegle

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Re: 17M Pips (18MHz)
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2018, 1718 UTC »
June 2,  1715 UTC
S9 stays on one freq for while, then jumps around after few ticks. Then back for long duration of ticks and repeating.

Light horizontal streaks are from the electric fence, need to weed whack the fence line again.
Seacoast of NH  RXR's =3 X SDR-iq's, 1 x SDRPlays, and 11 AirspyHF+'s . TXR's = 2 X TS-590S,  ANAN200D, 2 x IC-7300's, IC-7610, 2 X IC-7100. Antennas = Resonant wire dipoles, 120' end fed wires, or 2 X SteppIR 3 ele beam @ 70' fixed NE/SW directions. Also host Remotehams.com servers (RX/TX) as well as SDR Console servers V3.xx (RX Only) too!

Offline Traveling Wave

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Re: 17M Pips (18MHz)
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2018, 1604 UTC »
June 4, 2018, 1558 UTC, found PIP on 18158 kHz this AM. PIP signal starts at S3 and slowly climbs to S9 them back down again. At times I can't see a trace on the waterfall but I can still hear its one second pulse tone.
1631 UTC - Checked 18158 but PIP is gone.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 1632 UTC by Traveling Wave »
Location: Western New York ( Niagara Frontier)
Radio :TS480 with RTL-SDR pan-adapter, HDSDR software, Omni-Rig Control, Zenith T/O R600,T600
Antenna: 40m dipole, 20-17-15 meter fan dipole. One of N. Tesla's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools - from Epitaph by King Crimson
eQSL appreciated KC2ZYL@gmail.com

Offline GC

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Re: 17M Pips (18MHz)
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2018, 1733 UTC »
currently 2018-06-04 17:28 PIP is piping away on 18133 kHz (carrier frequency) 18132 USB but is hopping around from time to time

Interestingly, the UNID pip has always seemed to favour even 5 khz steps (i.e. 18130 or 18135 or 18140) but today is not.

Also noted on 18068 (18067kHz USB) kHz 18143 khz (18142 UsB) but never remains on one frequency for very long - still hopping around at 5kHz increments just not on the even one (i.e. xxxx5 or xxxx0 )

cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada

 

Offline GC

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Re: 17M Pips (18MHz)
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2018, 1601 UTC »
back on 17m again this morning, currently pip'ing away on 18078 kHz (carrier frequency) 18077khz USB

Interestingly, something new, at least for me. From time to time there are secondary PIPs offset by some multiple of 5 kHz slightly offset in time (trailing) from the PIP on 18078 kHz. see attached image.

I am monitoring remotely at the moment and unable to make any quantitative measurements on the signal.




Offline Traveling Wave

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All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2018, 0230 UTC »
0224UTC - The PIP is now active on frequencies 8100, 8110, 8115, 8120, 8130, 8135, 8170, 8180,8190,8195, pulsing from frequency to frequency in no specific pattern. Signal S9+20 to S9+40 dB in WNY.
0233 UTC - Now viewing double PIPs in random frequencies.
0247 UTC - PIP still going
0327 UTC - PIP still going
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 0327 UTC by Traveling Wave »
Location: Western New York ( Niagara Frontier)
Radio :TS480 with RTL-SDR pan-adapter, HDSDR software, Omni-Rig Control, Zenith T/O R600,T600
Antenna: 40m dipole, 20-17-15 meter fan dipole. One of N. Tesla's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools - from Epitaph by King Crimson
eQSL appreciated KC2ZYL@gmail.com

Offline Traveling Wave

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All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2018, 0257 UTC »
0250 UTC - PIP is pulsing on 40 meter amateur band, frequencies logged 7165, 7265, 7285, 7275, 7215, 7255, 7290, signal pulsing to S9+20 dB/40dB.
Doing its usual thing pulsing randomly between these frequencies for one to nine or more pulses per frequency per second.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 0302 UTC by Traveling Wave »
Location: Western New York ( Niagara Frontier)
Radio :TS480 with RTL-SDR pan-adapter, HDSDR software, Omni-Rig Control, Zenith T/O R600,T600
Antenna: 40m dipole, 20-17-15 meter fan dipole. One of N. Tesla's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools - from Epitaph by King Crimson
eQSL appreciated KC2ZYL@gmail.com

 


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