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Author Topic: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please  (Read 46943 times)

Offline Traveling Wave

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All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2018, 0035 UTC »
0027 UTC - UNID PIP now pulsing on 20 Meters amateur band, frequencies logged 14060, 14125, 14130,14140, 14160, 14315, 14300, 14320,14325, 14345, 14350. Signal varies from S9 to S9 +20/40/60dB at times. 
0100 UTC - PIP still pulsing away on 20 meters.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 0101 UTC by Traveling Wave »
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Offline Boriken

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Re: UNID PIP 20 Meters 0027 UTC 16 June 2018
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2018, 1510 UTC »
I was chasing some unidentified carriers & birdies last night (Jun 17 ~0200Z) & heard the Pips on 14745. Didn't look for any other frequencies. Fairly strong signal on an indoor 20m dipole.

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Offline GC

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Re: UNID PIP 20 Meters 0027 UTC 16 June 2018
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2018, 1241 UTC »
The mystery UNID 1 PPS PIP has continued to be active. 

I have not been able to actively monitor lately but have had a few spare moments from time to time to monitor remotely using online SDR's.

I have noted this UNID 1 PPS signal on 20m the past several evenings. Last evening around 2018-06-18 23:00 (approximately) I observed this signal on 20m moving around from about 14060 kHz up to around 14300 kHz - always on 5kHz frequencies i.e. 14305, 14310, 14315 (etc) I did not note the actual frequencies.

The signal would be on one frequency for a handful of PIPs, then switch; sometimes plus or minus 5kHz, sometime to the other end of the band - that is somewhere around 14300 kHz and then change to somewhere around 14060 kHz, then plus or minus 5kHz for a few PIPs then back up to the high end of the band.

Note - any noted frequency is the carrier frequency, you would need to tune 1kHz lower (i.e. 14304kHz) in USB for a 1Khz offset tone.


there has been a fairly long running thread on qrz.com discussing this signal:

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/time-signal-intruder.614510/


cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada



Offline GC

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All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2018, 0009 UTC »
What looks and acts like our UNID 1 PPS time signal like signal is active on 12MHz.

Has been hopping around between 12200kHz and 12400kHz favouring frequencies at 5kHz i.e. 12255, 12250, (carrier frequencies) etc.

Hasn't been staying on anyone frequency for very long, no more than a few PIPs before it changes.

cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada

Offline GC

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Re: UNID 1 PPS time signal like signal active on 12MHz
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2018, 0117 UTC »
what happened to being able to attach and image?


I don't see it any more under "attachements and other options"


cheers, Graham



Offline Token

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Re: UNID 1 PPS time signal like signal active on 12MHz
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2018, 0418 UTC »
These are around 8225 kHz, +/-, at 0415 UTC, 23 June, 2018.

T!
T!
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Offline GC

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2018, 2236 UTC »
The mystery UNID 1 PPS signal is currently active on 12270 kHz (carrier frequency) tune 12269 USB.


signal strength is about S3  SINPO 32243


So far in about 15 minutes of monitoring it has not changed frequency.


cheers, Graham near ottawa Canada


Offline Josh

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2018, 1431 UTC »
Suppose they're doing a prop/system study? Also, why are they bothering the HAM bands with what is surely going to be commercial traffic in nature.
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Offline Token

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2018, 2142 UTC »
Suppose they're doing a prop/system study? Also, why are they bothering the HAM bands with what is surely going to be commercial traffic in nature.

It has been mentioned here, and some of the folks over at QRZ forums are pretty emphatic, that this might be related to HFT experiments.  I am skeptical of that.  Over at QRZ and a few other forums they have gone as far as finding the experimental licenses that might be involved, but again I am skeptical.

Why the skepticism?  No one really compelling reason, but lots of little things that push me away from any such connection.

No license found covers all of the frequencies observed.  Between the 3 or 4 license being discussed they cover most, but not all, of the freqs seen, and no one license comes close to covering them all by itself.

The majority of the licenses seem to apply (based on emission types) to much wider bandwidth signals.  I think only one of the licenses lists OOK or N0N modulation.

The most promising license was not valid until a month after I first logged these signals, and I have no idea how many other people saw them before I did.

So technicalities of the licenses aside, what about the signal?

These signals appear to be simple unmodulated pulses.  There is no data that I can detect on the pulse itself.

It has been suggested that maybe the data is in the pulse timing, but the timing of these pulses is very consistent, they may, or may not, be timed at zero UTC second, but whatever their start time is they don't seem to vary much.  All variations I have seen to date could be accounted for by propagation changes (altitude of the reflective layer, single hop vs double hop, etc)

It has been suggested that the data is in the frequency selection.  However this would seem to me to be a very limited data set, and for a system that is supposed to be based on blindingly quick trades (advantages in milli, if not micro, seconds) having to get your next bit of data one full second later seems like a non-starter.

So really, I just don't see it being related to HFT unless it is very early in the process and they are still trying to figure out how to predict / quantify / resolve varying propagation delays.  And if they were doing that, why such small frequency segments and steps?  When they are active they are a couple hundred kHz wide hopping at most, and often sub 50 kHz across multiple freqs, what does that tell you that setting on one freq will not?

So, if not HFT, what is it?  Hell, I don't know, ain't radio great?

What we really need to happen is a couple of other people take accurate time cuts on when the pulses arrive.  We have two measurements, at least one more will give us enough data to do a TDOA calculation on the signal, and arrive at an approximate signal source location.

T!
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline skeezix

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2018, 2326 UTC »
I'd be happy to help with the timing measurement, but I don't find out about these until hours/days later.

However, I do think I found some up in 16 MHz somewhere a week or two ago.


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Offline Token

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2018, 2328 UTC »
Right now, 2325z, it is all over the 20 meter band.  Bouncing from about 14305 to about 14350.  Lots of time around the 14315-14330 area.

T!
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline skeezix

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2018, 2340 UTC »
Got 'em on 14330 kHz at ~2335 GMT.

After posting this, I re-read earlier messages in this thread on the possible delay of the pips themselves. I looked at a bunch of them sequentially in my recording and they vary from around 80 to 110 samples delayed from UTC, in no apparent order. From an earlier description, I was expecting as I went in a direction, that it would increase/decrease by a regular interval.  However that was not the case.

For a string of 11 PIPs in a row, this is what was found for the number of samples between UTC PIP (GPS) and the UNID PIP. Since I was eyeballing it, there's is some inaccuracy of the samples but should be within a few samples. These are uncorrected values for the delay of the radio (which at the recorded bandwidth is 6 samples).
117, 124, 101, 94, 98, 104, 110, 95, 116, 126, 100


This is from a pip at delayed 88 samples (corrected for internal radio delay) from UTC. This is equivalent to 1.9955 ms (using 44100 Hz sample rate):

« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 0213 UTC by skeezix »
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Offline Mixer

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2018, 0246 UTC »
Heard at 02:35Z  01 Jul 18 around 10.103 MHz on the K3FEF WebSDR
Location: Upstate New York (Southern Tier) Grid FN12
SDRs: RSP1A, ANAN 10E, Airspy R2, Airspy HF+
Analog Receiver: Drake R8B
Antennas: 80 meter dipole, Wellbrook AL1530LN Loop

Offline skeezix

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2018, 0250 UTC »
I've got it here at 0250Z on 10145 kHz.







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