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Author Topic: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please  (Read 46267 times)

Offline MDK2

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2018, 0253 UTC »
10145 kHz is very strong here in Denver as of 0253z.
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Offline Traveling Wave

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2018, 0322 UTC »
 1 July 2018
0319 UTC - Just logged PIP on 12250, 12240, 12230, 12340 kHz, at S9 +20/40dB in WNY. The PIP is bouncing randomly on these frequencies.
0327 UTC - PIP logged on 12355 kHz at S9 +40dB.
0328 UTC - PIP logged on 12245 kHz.
0332 UTC - PIP on 12250 kHz.
0335 UTC - PIP still on 12250 kHz.
0337 UTC - Checked University of Twente Web SDR and signal is S7-S9 in the Netherlands.
0343 UTC - PIP on 12245 kHz.
0348 UTC - PIP still on 12245 kHz.
0353 UTC - PIP went back to pulsing on different frequencies, 12250, 12365 12245, 12250, 12240 kHz.
0414 UTC - PIP on 12345 kHz, signal S9+60db in WNY.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 1609 UTC by Traveling Wave »
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Offline Token

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2018, 1526 UTC »
Got 'em on 14330 kHz at ~2335 GMT.

After posting this, I re-read earlier messages in this thread on the possible delay of the pips themselves. I looked at a bunch of them sequentially in my recording and they vary from around 80 to 110 samples delayed from UTC, in no apparent order. From an earlier description, I was expecting as I went in a direction, that it would increase/decrease by a regular interval.  However that was not the case.

For a string of 11 PIPs in a row, this is what was found for the number of samples between UTC PIP (GPS) and the UNID PIP. Since I was eyeballing it, there's is some inaccuracy of the samples but should be within a few samples. These are uncorrected values for the delay of the radio (which at the recorded bandwidth is 6 samples).
117, 124, 101, 94, 98, 104, 110, 95, 116, 126, 100


This is from a pip at delayed 88 samples (corrected for internal radio delay) from UTC. This is equivalent to 1.9955 ms (using 44100 Hz sample rate):

Thanks for the info Skeezix.  I will play around a bit with this and see what I come up with.

The variations you saw are about 0.7 msec, and my first assumption would be some mixing / multipath of groundwave and skywave.

Because we (GrahmC, you, me) took different measurements at different times and on different frequencies I would not expect much accuracy, but we should get the general region.  Also, you might be ground wave or at most single hop, GrahmC is probably single hop, and I am probably double hop.

I will plot it two ways.  The first will assume the pulse is at UTC zero second, the second will assume the start time is in sync with the UTC second, but not starting at zero second.  If I don't at least assume this later part then the measurements we took are meaningless, and we would all have to to take a cut on the same single pulse for it to be of any use.  But based on the stability of the timing referenced UTC zero second for me (for months now the timing has been the same for me with acceptable propagation caused variations) I think at least this last part is a safe assumption.

(edit)  Adding plots based on some loose measurements and assumptions.

I must start by saying, the measurements these plots are based on were taken on different days, different frequencies, and different times of the day.  In other words, there is the potential for a lot of slop.  Further, some large assumptions were made.

This is not something I would put in a peer reviewed paper, but it may be a good starting point to get an idea of the potential source region of these signals.

The Range Ring plots hinge on the assumption that the pulses of the 1 PPS ticks start on the UTC second.  If this is a false assumption then the plots are totally useless.

The TDOA plots do not care (relative to UTC second) when the pulse starts, but because they were taken at different times and on different pulses they assume the pulses are in sync with UTC second, even if not coincident with it or they do not start on the UTC second.  Long term observation, and timing measurements, make this a safe, but not confirmed, assumption.

Uncorrected maximum range rings

For GrahmC, near Ottawa, Canada, we have only a single measurement.  For Skeezix, near Minneapolis, MN, and for myself (Token) in the Mojave Desert of California, near IYK, we have a range of measurements.  These ranges are probably caused by changing propagation delays and multipath.

The following images are range rings plotted with no consideration of the altitude of the reflective layer of the ionosphere, and no attempt to correct for path length increases due to propagation.  They are just range rings plotted based on time of propagation, and they are worst case, maximum possible, ranges.  The actual value will be something less than what is plotted here, the rings should be a little smaller.

In other words, the target will probably be someplace inside the common, overlapping, area of all three rings.  It should be skewed towards the points of intersection of the rings.

The rings are color coded.  Skeezix rings are Yellow, GrahmC rings are Red, and my rings are Green.

The overall map, note that the intersection to the north is fairly tight.  This might lead someone to believe that is the source location.  However I believe the actual source location is near the lower, more scattered, intersection.


Zoomed in view of the same plot above.




Corrected range rings

The following range ring images are loosely "corrected" to compensate for the added distance of skywave propagation.  Skeezix should have ground wave or at most single hop propagation (the shortest numbers are assumed to be ground wave), GrahmC should have single hop, and I should have single or double hop.  Very rough correction was made for the single and double hop deltas.

The rings are color coded.  Skeezix rings are Yellow, GrahmC rings are Red, and my rings are Green.

The overall map.


Zoomed in view of the same plot above showing the area of the southern intersection.



TDOA

Time Difference Of Arrival curves, uncorrected and corrected as above, were plotted for the three pairs of receive locations.

The curves are color coded.  Skeezix vs Token curves are Blue, Skeezix vs GrahmC curves are Green, and GrahmC vs Token curves are Red.

TDOA Uncorrected plots.

The overall map.  Since two pairs pf stations will have hop or multiple hop sky wave propagation, and one may have no hop, these intersections are probably pushed out a bit, a tad long.


Zoomed in view of the same plots.


Zoomed in view of the same plots, centered on the southern intersection.


TDOA Corrected Plots.

As for the Corrected Range Rings, a rough normalization was done to try and remove or reduce the variations of propagation.  Since the receive locations were at vary different ranges form the target, the measurements were done on different days and frequencies, this normalization is, at best, "loose".  It is mostly done to show the potential variations.

The overall map.


Zoomed in slightly on the overall map, still showing both intersections.


Zoomed in and showing only the southern intersection.



Both Corrected and Uncorrected TDOA plots, on a single map.  This shows both TDOA plots and the area they encompass.  If I was a betting man I would say there was a pretty good chance the source is in or near the highlighted area of this map.



T!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 1931 UTC by Token »
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline skeezix

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2018, 1551 UTC »
2018-Jun-01

Time pips.
1550Z S9 12345 kHz
1602Z Disappeared sometime in the past couple of minutes.
1603-1630Z Searched from 2 MHz to 30 MHz and didn't see it.
164000Z S9 12345 kHz
164110Z Disappeared. Don't see it in the vicinity of 12345 kHz
1833Z 14340 kHz S6-S9
183549Z Stopped. Don't see where it moved to.
185200Z Started again. Much weaker. Its in & out of the noise.
185250Z Off




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« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 1854 UTC by skeezix »
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Offline Traveling Wave

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2018, 1648 UTC »
July 1 2018

1645 UTC - Caught PIP on 14300 and 14305 kHz for a few pulses then gone, signal was S9+40dB in WNY.
1652 UTC - PIP back on 14305 foe a few pulses then off .
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 1652 UTC by Traveling Wave »
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Offline GC

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2018, 2220 UTC »
Token,


Excellent work, well done and explained.


cheers, Graham


Offline Traveling Wave

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2018, 0034 UTC »
2 July 2018 -

0030 UTC - PIP now pulsing on 20 meters, frequencies logged 14130 kHz, 14060, 14040, 14055, 14045, 14050, 14065, 14030, 14060, 14160, signal is s9+20/40dB in WNY.
0035 UTC - PIP also on 14325, 14315, 14350, it appears the PIP is pulsing back and forth from the lower to the higher frequencies on 20 meters,
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 0043 UTC by Traveling Wave »
Location: Western New York ( Niagara Frontier)
Radio :TS480 with RTL-SDR pan-adapter, HDSDR software, Omni-Rig Control, Zenith T/O R600,T600
Antenna: 40m dipole, 20-17-15 meter fan dipole. One of N. Tesla's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools - from Epitaph by King Crimson
eQSL appreciated KC2ZYL@gmail.com

Offline skeezix

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2018, 0055 UTC »
Token, very well done.
Minneapolis, MN

Offline Traveling Wave

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2018, 1556 UTC »
2 July 2018 Nice work Token.
1555 UTC - PIP pulsing away on 18133kHz, signal S9+20/40 dB in WNY.
1605 UTC - PIP switches to 18078, 18143 kHz. Steady on 18143 kHz.
1802 UTC - PIP steady on 18068, signal is a weak S7.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 1802 UTC by Traveling Wave »
Location: Western New York ( Niagara Frontier)
Radio :TS480 with RTL-SDR pan-adapter, HDSDR software, Omni-Rig Control, Zenith T/O R600,T600
Antenna: 40m dipole, 20-17-15 meter fan dipole. One of N. Tesla's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production.
Knowledge is a deadly friend when no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools - from Epitaph by King Crimson
eQSL appreciated KC2ZYL@gmail.com

Offline GC

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2018, 2200 UTC »
As has been reported by others, the UNID 1 PPS time tick has been active on 18xxx kHz today hopping around from one end to the other of the amateur 17m band plus some reports higher up in frequency.


I spent some time taking some measurements on the PIP. I had reorganised my listening desk with an eye to setting it up in a configuration that I could more easily take such measurements without having to spent 15 minutes looking for cables and connectors to hook everything up when I want to make some measurements. I have been playing around with trying to measure WWV second pips to see if I could measure them well enough to identify changes in the ionosphere - still working on that, so far I can say that I can but not very reliably. More practice and refinement may see an improvement. I have changed from using my Yaesu FT-950 to my ICOM R75. The R75 seems to be better suited to making these kinds of measurements. Not only can I lock it's frequency to my GPSDO but the delay through the receiver is much less and seems more consistent than the FT-950.


In any case, my measurements of the UNID 1 PPS PIP shows the pulse width is still consistently around 16ms and I was able to get some very good and consistent measurements on the start of PIP with respect to UTC as well as on WWV on 15MHz.


My simple way to calculate a range on the UNID is to use WWV as a reference. Since I know the distant from my location to WWV and using a simple ratio of the time differences between WWV and UNID I can calculate the distance to the UNID. This technique will also provide a result that is independent of any delay of the signals through the receiver and tends to nullify the impact of propagation with respect to a simple great circle distance for the signal vs one that bounces off the ionosphere and what applies to my reference, in this case WWV on 15MHz, will also apply to the UNID signal. This is of course assuming the UNID PIP is or is very closely synced to UTC.


At the end of it all, my calculated range calculation to the UNID today was 1128.2 km or if you prefer 609.18 nm where one nautical mile is exactly 1.852 km.


I think to date these have been my best measurements.


cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada




Online R4002

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2018, 1843 UTC »
Rockford, Illinois (roughly close to the center of the circle in Token's map) is 1123 km (just a hair under 698 miles) from Ottawa, Canada so yes, that figures (nearly) perfectly.

One wonders if this is a defense contractor messing around or if there's actually some sort of goal/purpose with these UNID pips all over HF. 
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Offline er1c

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2018, 2038 UTC »
If someone feels ambitious, here's a list of all Defense Contractors in Rockford, IL. You have to scroll a bit before you get to the list...

https://www.governmentcontractswon.com/department/defense/rockford_il_illinois.asp

Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2018, 2000 UTC »
I believe that circle also includes one of the high frequency trading sites?
Chris Smolinski
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Offline GC

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2018, 2355 UTC »
That is my understanding.


I have been trying to follow some of the online postings on the subject high frequency trading and reports of the antenna sites in Chicago area but haven't seen anything new of late.


cheers, Graham near Ottawa Canada

Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: All 1 PPS pip / pulse / tick logs here please
« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2018, 1631 UTC »
I'd like to try to take some timing information (delay from UTC) from these pip stations. Any particular time of day / frequencies I should try?  I am on the RocketChat all day, so if you notice any on the air and can let me know in real time so I can check, I can try to take the measurements.
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