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Author Topic: MLA-30 Loop antenna  (Read 22925 times)

Offline Kenotic

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2022, 0534 UTC »
I am trying out the MLA 30+ and am having mixed results.

On one hand, some of the stronger stations sound like they're next door! 11780 kHz Brazil is perfect in the late afternoon, as are most of the VOA relays from Africa.

On the other, the noise floor is so high it obliterates anything else. CFRX, Turkey, Radio Educacion? All too much noise now.

Also, if this is supposed to work on MW I'm not seeing any improvement over the internal antenna on my radio.

Any suggestions? Anything I'm missing?
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Offline RobRich

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2022, 0958 UTC »
The active antenna preamp could be overloading your portable. Are you tuning the lower bands with attenuation enable? Eton probably calls it "local."

How have you deployed the active loop? Inside, outside, height, etc.

Also, does your portable receiver use the external antenna port for MW? Some do not, while others like later Tecsuns require long pressing a key to enable the feature. Not sure about your model as I have not really kept up with Eton receivers in quite awhile.
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Offline Kenotic

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2022, 0503 UTC »
Thanks for the response.

I'm attenuating as needed -- I can drop it to "local" when it gets to be too much or stations bleed in. For whatever reason Radio Marti likes to go all over the place if I don't.

I've had to keep the loop inside for the most part, but I had it out on the porch tonight. It's mildly better there, some of the weaker signals are fighting through the noise floor. It may take a bit to find a place outside for now consistently. I can't go too high outside right now, but I may try and hoist it up on a PVC pipe I have laying around.

I cannot find any info about a switch to get the antenna to MW, which is a bit disappointing. I'm scouring sites for any hints of hidden features online, but I'm not seeing many.
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Offline Zoidberg

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2022, 0830 UTC »
Indoor antennas, including magnetic loops or any antenna that touts receiving the magnetic portion of the spectrum tend to be just as vulnerable to RFI as the telescoping whip on a portable or bare random wire to a tabletop receiver. Just the nature of the beast when we're swamped with electronic and electrical noisemakers from every direction.

With any amplified wide spectrum small loop antenna, the best we can hope for is to orient the nulls toward the worst sources of RFI. Sometimes that helps. Often it doesn't when we're surrounded by RFI from every direction.

If you try enough online receivers and SDRs around the globe, you'll encounter some Wellbrook loops and other highly prized loops that have raspy, buzzy RFI just as bad as anything we can get at home with a portable on the whip, or a bit of random wire strung along the ceiling or dangled outside a window. There's nothing magical about a Wellbrook or any loop in an environment plagued by RFI from every direction.

Same with the PA0RDT amplified mini-whips. Those are only as good as the location, and few online tuners have them mounted high enough to be relatively free of RFI. The popular Twente SDR is among the tiny handful that make good use of the design.

Plenty of online tuners and SDRs claim to be in quiet locations, but few actually are quiet. If they've strung up traditional wire antennas -- slopers, dipoles, doesn't matter -- reception is only as good as their nearest worst neighbor. The best, quietest SDRs tend to either be in remote locations, or very directional, such as aimed across the Atlantic or Pacific from either coast, with a few lobes off the backs that make domestic US reception possible. Those are often remarkably quiet because the designs tend to ignore the local RFI. The HFU accessible SDR with 250 foot V-beam aimed across the Atlantic is one such example, being among the quietest in the world of all the SDRs I've tried. But it depends on lobes off the back, small apertures of sensitivity toward US transmitters.

In 15 years in the same apartment battling RFI from neighbors' devices to faulty electrical power sources, to the nearby fire department, I've had the best results from homebrewed passive shielded loop antennas. See: https://swling.com/blog/tag/pixel-shielded-magnetic-receive-only-loop/ and other articles.

None of my radios -- various portables including a Sony ICF-2010, and Palstar R30C sorta-tabletop/portable-ish hybrid -- needs an antenna amplifier. All of them have far more sensitivity than necessary, even on low/attenuated. That includes using the external antenna jack on the Sony, which is only slightly less sensitive than the whip.

Speaking of whips, through trial and error I discovered My Sony ICF-2010 portable is remarkably directional with the whip. Aim the tip of the whip antenna toward the worst local RFI and there's a null. Likewise, orienting the whip horizontally -- parallel with the ground -- is the quietest setting. Also the least sensitive, but it's often easier to actually copy the faint signal with reduced noise.

There are many designs for homebrewed loop antennas, including at least one that doesn't even look like a conventional loop -- the Villard antenna, which is just sheets of aluminum foil mounted on a large sheet of cardboard, plywood, foamcore or gatorboard. The Joe Carr receiving antenna book published in the 1990s includes most of these designs.

These can be tuned by adding a tuning capacitor. Some, like the Villard, and this ugly but functional doodad (https://www.eham.net/article/40484), use overlapping sheets of aluminum foil with non-conductive spacers between the foil -- a sheet of paper, plastic, whatever you have available.

If you don't want to bother with a capacitor, or don't have one handy, too pricey, whatever, you can build the loop to dimensions tuned for the desired band. Optimal reception will be fairly narrow, with good reception possible at other bands scattered across the HF and MW spectrum. With trial and error you can build a very quiet, direction, functional passive shielded loop from nothing but old TV coaxial cable, an adaptor to suit the antenna jack on your receiver, and a place to hang or mount the ugly mess of coax. I used such a fugly loop for years, mounted on the inside of a closet door. The swinging door added directionality to null out the worst local RFI, and I could close the door to hide the antenna from snoopy landlords, maintenance crews and building inspectors who couldn't cite any valid reason not to have an indoor receive-only antenna, but thought there was something suspicious about it. Keep in mind that changing in communications devices have made "radio" a foreign object used only by misfit nerds and spies, as far as most folks are concerned.

Another version that worked even better -- although not an indoor loop -- was a stealth loop fastened to the inside of a wooden fence outside my ground floor apartment window. The loop was nothing but very thin magnet wire, in a roughly square shape, 8 feet along each side, following the dimensions of the fence (I used screws, nails or cup hooks, whatever was handy, to wrap the wire in a large "loop" shape). The wire ends were fastened to an old fashioned TV balun. I ran old TV coax, often scrounged from the dumpster, along the ground next to the building, tucked into the dirt. Then up the wall to a window with the sash cracked open just a bit (thumbscrew sash locks used to discourage burglars), and to the receiver. That loop nulled off the edges (opposite of most small loops, which null off the open faces), effectively nulling out the worst RFI from the parking lot and building lights. Worked great, until the apartment complex maintenance crews found it and tore it down. Which is why I built these from the cheapest materials available. I bought a bunch of magnet wire cheap from the local Radio Shack outlet store years ago. And I scrounged the TV coax and baluns from the dumpster after tenants moved, died or were evicted. So I didn't have more than a couple of dollars sunk into any outdoor passive loop. The only problem with that design now is TV baluns are hardly ever in demand or used anymore. I could use a proper homebrewed balun designed for HF, but the TV baluns worked despite not being optimized for HF.

The best performing versions of my loops were remarkably quiet, enough to reduce local RFI to just above the receiver's built-in noise floor, a sort of white noise low hiss. That enabled leaving the receiver on 24/7 with the volume just high enough to catch the faint sound of a pirate or other signal on 6925, 6955, etc. Rigged to an SDR we could just go by the visual cues onscreen.

The only downside was these passive loops picked up only fairly strong signals, and were more prone to fading. But there was a lot less tiresome RFI.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 0849 UTC by Zoidberg »
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Offline RobRich

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2022, 1112 UTC »
Definitely get the active loop outside away from residential RFI. Do not be too concerned about elevation for now, as vertical loops elevated by least a loop diameter or two tend to not be overly influenced by ground losses.

The MLA-30 is not too directive IIRC, so I would suggest turning it to null local noise if possible and leave it there. Set, forget, and enjoy.

About MW, you might try feeding the external antenna to a few turns of wire wrapped around the portable receiver, thus passively coupling to the portable's internal MW ferrite antenna. I have done similar with outdoor antennas feeding a tuned loop like the Tecsun AN-200 placed next to a portable, too.
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Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2022, 1444 UTC »
I'll echo the advice to get the loop, or any antenna, outside if possible. Some experimentation may be useful to find the quietest location.  Also take care to consider your feedline and possibly add some common mode choking (ferrite cores) to deal with RFI pickup on the coax itself.  Remember that CM choking / ferrites only mitigate RFI picked up on the outside part of the shield of the coax. They do *nothing* for RFI/QRM picked up by the antenna itself.

And yes, amplification is rarely needed with HF receivers. That's something for the VHF/UHF bands. All you do, especially with lower cost receivers, is make yourself susceptible to overloading and images. If anything, attenuation might be your friend.

One point to consider about shielded loop antennas is that none of them only receive the magnetic part of the signal - that's either a misunderstanding or marketing snake oil, depending on how charitable you are  ;D
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Offline Zoidberg

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2022, 0110 UTC »
Ditto, tricks to reduce common mode noise picked up by the coax feed line itself.

Even cheaper than ferrite cores -- if your feedline is long enough, just wrap it neatly in closely spaced coils. A form such as a plastic coffee can works great. Coil the feedline around that and tape it in place. It'll usually work as well as ferrite cores for receive-only antennas.

However those tricks also seem to attenuate the wanted signal on some bands. And household RFI tends to be worse on some bands and almost non-existent on others. In my apartment I find it necessary to reduce RFI as much as possible from around 6600-7000, but it's practically nil around 75-80m, 20m and other bands. So if I use the ferrite cores or coil trick, I might do better to remove those if I'm primarily listening to frequencies outside the funny bands.
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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2022, 0224 UTC »
Quote
if your feedline is long enough, just wrap it neatly in closely spaced coils

Old "ham" wives tail. Not recommended, highly inconsistent with unpredictable results. This topic is covered in the ARRL Antenna Book. Don't waste your time and use quality ferrites from a reputable source, and just not any ferrite.

MIX 31 -> 1 MHz - 300 MHz (good for HF)
MIX 75/J -> 150 KHz - 10 MHz

https://palomar-engineers.com/ferrite-products/ferrite-cores/ferrite-mix-selection

Offline Zoidberg

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2022, 0236 UTC »
Quote
if your feedline is long enough, just wrap it neatly in closely spaced coils

Old "ham" wives tail. Not recommended, highly inconsistent with unpredictable results. This topic is covered in the ARRL Antenna Book. Don't waste your time and use quality ferrites from a reputable source, and just not any ferrite.

MIX 31 -> 1 MHz - 300 MHz (good for HF)
MIX 75/J -> 150 KHz - 10 MHz

https://palomar-engineers.com/ferrite-products/ferrite-cores/ferrite-mix-selection

I'm not a ham, old or otherwise. I don't transmit, and have never tried the coiled feedline trick suggested by some hams for transmitting.

I'm referring strictly to coiling up feedline to reduce noise in receive-only antennas. It works because... I've used it. It works as well as ferrite cores. I've compared both side by side many times.

Same pros and cons apply to both methods. Ferrite cores and coiled feedline can reduce noise without attenuating signal on some bands, not so well on others. In many experiments I find they work identically.

But ferrite chokes are indispensable for reducing noise on audio patch cables (for off air recordings, etc), USB cables, and some power cords. It's always a trial and error thing. Many shielded cables come with small ferrite chokes on one or both ends, but they tend not to work well unless the cable is looped at least once through the choke. Ferrite chokes usually work best with two or three loops, so I buy them oversize.

Coiling shielded audio patch cables *can* work, but ferrite chokes are easier -- you don't need excessively long cables in order to have enough material to coil up.

Coiling unshielded cords does nothing, so it won't help to coil up power cords from a noisy converter. Better to just get a better quality power adapter. The one that came with my Palstar spews RFI, but I replaced it long ago with some very good, quiet power adapters from Radio Shack -- no longer available, alas.
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Offline RobRich

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2022, 0713 UTC »
You ideally want substantial resistive choking across the desired frequency range(s). That typically means ferrites if being deployed for a wide swath of frequencies, like across multiple HF bands.

http://www.karinya.net/g3txq/chokes/

Your can obtain moderate resistivity with an air-core choke, but it is generally limited to a single HF band or so. The downside for muti-band usage is it can present a largely reactive profile on other bands, which can actually make common-mode worse.

The reality is if an air-core feedline choke seems to work across the whold HF spectrum, the antenna and feedline system probably does not present significant common-mode and/or much RFI/EMI ingress anyway.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 0948 UTC by RobRich »
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Offline TRI International

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2022, 2218 UTC »
I have one up / not impressed it amplifies just about everything it hears good or bad  my long wire seems to do much better so I go with that.
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Offline ChrisSmolinski

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2022, 1206 UTC »
I have one up / not impressed it amplifies just about everything it hears good or bad  my long wire seems to do much better so I go with that.

[Relatively] small loop antennas can work well, my 2m x 2m crossed parallel loop for example. OK, that's a bit larger than an MLA-30, but you get the idea, still relatively small vs a passive HF antenna. And others have made smaller loops using a quality pre-amp, like the LZ1AQ designed I used.

But that's (one of) the key factors - you need a decent pre-amp. I've lost track of the loops discussed in this thread as well as the "best MWDX antenna" thread, but I recall one loop used a video amp IC as the pre-amp, with the expected dismal results.

The other is you absolutely need to get the loop antenna outside if possible. If it was still 1975 when the only real sources of indoor RFI were dimmer switches and a TV, sure you could use it inside. But today the average home is a cesspool of RFI/QRM generators. Once the antenna picks up RFI, no amount of ferrite cores will fix that.  A simple random wire antenna outside will quite likely outperform a loop antenna in the shack. Perhaps by a wide margin.

Yet another factor is that many receivers, especially portables, easily suffer from overloading. This results in images and all sorts of other problems.  A stronger s meter signal does not mean the active antenna is going to perform better. In addition to overloading, you have possible problems due to the (low cost) pre-amp itself. Any amplifier adds noise, some more than others.
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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2022, 2356 UTC »
I have a MLA-30.  It works, but, a bit noisy.  I did check and the MLA-30 uses a video amp IC which is neither matched or has a good noise figure.  It does work well to listen to shortwave broadcasters.  It is not the best for free radio stations or weak signal stations.  For its price, it is not bad.  It does beat a the whip antenna on a portable radio for shortwave.
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Offline RobRich

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2022, 0547 UTC »
On the potential local noise issues with the MLA-30 is the power supply being used. Many USB wall warts are quite noisy. True OEM Apple chargers tend to be the quietest consumer models I have tried. Otherwise a battery power bank might be a better option if intending to use the USB port.

A basic bias tee is easy to build or cheap enough to buy, and I recommend either a 9v-12v linear regulated power supply or battery power source.

The included bias tee can be modified as well. You can bypass the voltage converter by tracing the circuit back from the USB port, then breakout your new power feed to an external source. I popped out the now-unneeded USB port to run the new power supply wiring.

I have yet to actually use my original MLA-30 much, but what little testing I did was using a 9v battery.

Also I received a MLA-30+ awhile back. I might do some experimenting with it in the near future.
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Offline Ray Lalleu

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Re: MLA-30 Loop antenna
« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2023, 1355 UTC »
to Kenotic :
you got lots of good advices, I just can add one :
begin by weeding out the pesty devices in your own home,
for those you can't remove, add an EMI/RFI filtered power cord extension,
don't mind about the dB announced (the differences are about the way they are measured and announced), just put them drawn so that the noise can't easily jump from one side to the other.
Beware, some devices are making more noise when set waiting 'off' than when being on, and also some have kind of energy stocking so the on-off switching has no immediate effect.

Of course, if you have any kind of networking through the power lines, throw it in a hurry to the dump !
 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2023, 1356 UTC by Ray Lalleu »
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