We seek to understand and document all radio transmissions, legal and otherwise, as part of the radio listening hobby. We do not encourage any radio operations contrary to regulations. Always consult with the appropriate authorities if you have questions concerning what is permissable in your locale.

Author Topic: Pips 13559 kHz  (Read 8623 times)

Offline Dag

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2015, 2237 UTC »
http://1drv.ms/1C6ZKmS

Above is a 1min 16sec recording of the pips on 13559 kHz on March 20 2015 @ about 2234z.

At the beginning,  I count 10 pips.  The 11th is a double pip. Then 54 pips. The 55th is a double pip.

10 single pips
11th = double pip
54 single pips
55th = double pip

Jim, when I saw your video, I counted as you did!  It seems there is some variation in the pip count?

Dag
Seminole county, Florida, USA, Earth, Solar System, Universe.
TS440s + attic dipole. Black coffee. Ketosis.

Offline Teotwaki

  • Moderator
  • DX Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1810
  • California
    • View Profile
    • My adventures are at Sun To The North
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2015, 2304 UTC »
Thanks!! Definitely a different pattern!
Jim
NRD-525, Elecraft KX3 and Elecraft PX3 Spectrum Display
76' end fed long wire & 66' off-center fed dipole for 10/20/40 meters
Orange County, SoCal, The better half

Offline Token

  • Global Moderator
  • DX Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1798
    • View Profile
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2015, 2311 UTC »
Thanks!! Definitely a different pattern!

And just to top it all off at 2310'ish UTC I am hearing it with no doubles on 13559.94 kHz.  I might add I am hearing another ditter, about 3 per second, 13559.37 kHz.

T!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 2313 UTC by Token »
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline Teotwaki

  • Moderator
  • DX Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1810
  • California
    • View Profile
    • My adventures are at Sun To The North
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2015, 0419 UTC »
Thanks!! Definitely a different pattern!

And just to top it all off at 2310'ish UTC I am hearing it with no doubles on 13559.94 kHz.  I might add I am hearing another ditter, about 3 per second, 13559.37 kHz.

T!


Like I said, we aren't hearing a beacon.
Jim
NRD-525, Elecraft KX3 and Elecraft PX3 Spectrum Display
76' end fed long wire & 66' off-center fed dipole for 10/20/40 meters
Orange County, SoCal, The better half

Offline Token

  • Global Moderator
  • DX Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1798
    • View Profile
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2015, 1216 UTC »

Like I said, we aren't hearing a beacon.

While I can accept that, why do you think it is not a, or possibly more than one, beacon?

The ditter that has been mentioned in this thread, or at least one very like it, is currently strong and clear here right now, with no sign of any "other" signal, like the wider signal.  And by the way, it just went through a cycle (at about 1132 UTC) of every other dit was a double dit, 4 times in a row, then a single dit, then doubles 2 times in a row, and then into 35 minutes (so far) without a double, although it did speed up at least once(edit at 1259 UTC, the next double I heard was at 1257 UTC).  So this same signal does change format periodically.  Unfortunately I did not start recording until after the last double dit, so now I have a 30 minute recording with no doubles in it...DOH!

I also sometimes clearly, but weakly, see the other ditter here, at about 13559.4 kHz.

Is it possible this ditter on 13559.94 is not a beacon, but rather a legitimate ISM signal?  Of course it is possible (and one of the reasons I keep calling it a ditter, vs a beacon), and it just happens to fit the very loose format used by some beacons / hobby ditters.  There are signals spread all up and down the HF spectrum that fit this description, but few, if any, match this description for long periods of time.  Typically they will dit or dash away for a while before changing format to something more meaningful for a while.  I have not yet seen a non-beacon signal that has been this consistent and persistent.

For sure there is a community of beacon enthusiast using the 13560 kHz region, for example here is a list of freqs used by some of them    
http://lwca.org/sitepage/part15/beaconsmfhf.html

And this is not the first time the 13560 kHz region has been discussed here: http://www.hfunderground.com/board/index.php?;topic=15330.0  Notice in that thread I suggested that what was being reported might not be a beacon, however multiple signals were being discussed, some of them possibly beacons, some of them certainly not.

I think what is going on here is that the ISM bands (like this range of freqs) are used by many signals, and also used by beaconers.  Sometimes you see the beacons, sometimes you see the other signals, and sometimes you see them all mixed.  It would appear I can receive this ditter / beacon on 13559.94 kHz 24 hours a day, although sometimes weak.  The general direction from my location appears to be roughly 335 - 340 deg true, but a bearing cut from a single location on HF can be very much in error, so I would have to confirm that with cuts from other locations before I was too confident in it.

T!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 1300 UTC by Token »
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline Teotwaki

  • Moderator
  • DX Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1810
  • California
    • View Profile
    • My adventures are at Sun To The North
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2015, 1554 UTC »
While I can accept that, why do you think it is not a, or possibly more than one, beacon?

A number of factors including me not leaping to a conclusion, trying to build a dossier of facts, examine the pattern, look for a logical answer, etc. You seem to be a deliberate thinker and I appreciate that very much.

As soon as I saw Dag insist he was hearing something quite different I had to question the assumption that this was a "beacon", at least in the hobbyist sense. I also don't yet see a reason to assume that this is a deliberate commercial ISM device that is broadcasting as part of a network of linked devices that are relaying some sort of scientific data.


The ditter that has been mentioned in this thread, or at least one very like it, is currently strong and clear here right now, with no sign of any "other" signal, like the wider signal.  And by the way, it just went through a cycle (at about 1132 UTC) of every other dit was a double dit, 4 times in a row, then a single dit, then doubles 2 times in a row, and then into 35 minutes (so far) without a double, although it did speed up at least once(edit at 1259 UTC, the next double I heard was at 1257 UTC).  So this same signal does change format periodically.  Unfortunately I did not start recording until after the last double dit, so now I have a 30 minute recording with no doubles in it...DOH!

I also sometimes clearly, but weakly, see the other ditter here, at about 13559.4 kHz.


More evidence that everyone is hearing something different yet there is no evident pattern that suggests any of them are related to one another besides the possible center frequency. Just not enough to go on but again, you have to ask WHY this would be here and try to support that with evidence. In contrast we have some known hobbyist pirate beacons in known locations on frequencies that have propagation patterns. This 13,559 signal is pretty much always there, day and night. If it was that powerful of a signal we would all hear the same thing at some point but we don't. Could it be some sort of device with an NVIS antenna? Possibly. Again, why? Who would spend the money to deploy and maintain such a thing? Maybe they are a commercial wireless sensor system on a common center frequency, using a common modulation but each is merrily broadcasting its own data for a short range but remote system.


Is it possible this ditter on 13559.94 is not a beacon, but rather a legitimate ISM signal?  Of course it is possible (and one of the reasons I keep calling it a ditter, vs a beacon), and it just happens to fit the very loose format used by some beacons / hobby ditters.  There are signals spread all up and down the HF spectrum that fit this description, but few, if any, match this description for long periods of time.  Typically they will dit or dash away for a while before changing format to something more meaningful for a while.  I have not yet seen a non-beacon signal that has been this consistent and persistent.

For sure there is a community of beacon enthusiast using the 13560 kHz region, for example here is a list of freqs used by some of them   
http://lwca.org/sitepage/part15/beaconsmfhf.html

All those folks share something that all pirate broadcasters want: to be recognized. If no one seems to hear them they "leak" the information to their community of listeners or they pose as a listener and tell of their "discovery". There was a pirate SW broadcaster here in Orange County (Santa Ana) that could not keep his mouth shut and was repeatedly busted because he loved to know that people heard him and made it easy for the FCC to know he was on the air. I won't point out anybody here but when I read some messages I have to say out loud "Exactly how did you know that detail?".

At that link that you posted and just for the record, not a single frequency is at 13,559 KHz. They also seem to prefer QRSS, slow most code modulation. If group or club decided to have a standard beacon format on a standard frequency would they not publish it somewhere if it was a low power hobbyist endeavor?


And this is not the first time the 13560 kHz region has been discussed here: http://www.hfunderground.com/board/index.php?;topic=15330.0  Notice in that thread I suggested that what was being reported might not be a beacon, however multiple signals were being discussed, some of them possibly beacons, some of them certainly not.

I think what is going on here is that the ISM bands (like this range of freqs) are used by many signals, and also used by beaconers.  Sometimes you see the beacons, sometimes you see the other signals, and sometimes you see them all mixed.  It would appear I can receive this ditter / beacon on 13559.94 kHz 24 hours a day, although sometimes weak.  The general direction from my location appears to be roughly 335 - 340 deg true, but a bearing cut from a single location on HF can be very much in error, so I would have to confirm that with cuts from other locations before I was too confident in it.

T!


Of course the ISM band is used by many signals, that is the very purpose of it but not a reason to conclude that this is someone's beacon. It is a nice place for hobbyists to transmit flea powered signals but so far we have different signals in different geographic areas that have common characteristics including pretty reliable reception.

Now after all of that I have to say I love the discussion, I love seeing your and Dag's thoughts and it is a lot of fun! No one wants to take any of it personally but that happens when reading text on a forum even if it is meant to be emotionless technical prose.   ;D

Best regards,

Jim

PS: preview does not seem to work so I will have to come back in and edit wherever I screwed up

Jim
NRD-525, Elecraft KX3 and Elecraft PX3 Spectrum Display
76' end fed long wire & 66' off-center fed dipole for 10/20/40 meters
Orange County, SoCal, The better half

Offline Token

  • Global Moderator
  • DX Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1798
    • View Profile
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2015, 1753 UTC »
While I can accept that, why do you think it is not a, or possibly more than one, beacon?

A number of factors including me not leaping to a conclusion, trying to build a dossier of facts, examine the pattern, look for a logical answer, etc. You seem to be a deliberate thinker and I appreciate that very much.

As soon as I saw Dag insist he was hearing something quite different I had to question the assumption that this was a "beacon", at least in the hobbyist sense. I also don't yet see a reason to assume that this is a deliberate commercial ISM device that is broadcasting as part of a network of linked devices that are relaying some sort of scientific data.

[/quote]

I also am not convinced this is a hobby beacon, but many of the signals reported in this forum are not hobby beacons.

This is why I asked if you ever drop in #wunclub.  The #wunclub IRC channel is a great place to compare real time receptions.  For example you could monitor the signal while I was also monitoring, and when you heard a double you post it, if I did not also hear a double then we are not hearing the same thing.

If you don't want to use the more active #wunclub, the #monitor channel is almost silent, I really only keep it up as an alternate NSA IRC bot access location and because it has existed so long.

By the way, many of the ISM devices found in this band have modulation that is incidental to their purposes.  In other words, they are most often not data links or anything like that.  For example, the RF based inventory control systems at stores often use this frequency range, and some of them send out a simple periodic pip (sound familiar?) to query RF ID tags, others, most, are more complex waveforms.


In contrast we have some known hobbyist pirate beacons in known locations on frequencies that have propagation patterns. This 13,559 signal is pretty much always there, day and night. If it was that powerful of a signal we would all hear the same thing at some point but we don't.


I am not 100% convinced we are not hearing the same thing.  Unless we can confirm the same time of reception in some way I don't think we can be sure.  At this point I don't feel strongly about it either way but I lean towards the same signal, if not the same source.

For sure we have all heard different things, no doubt there.  But if we all listened at the same time would we hear different things?  I have heard periods with doubles and without them.

How about this...just a wild suggestion to consider.  What if the basic pulses we are all hearing are the same signal, and the doubles are a local variation or addition from a common local but separate source?  What is something local is slotting into the basic pulse train intentionally?  Notice that the interval of the start of the first pulse in a double to the start of the next single is about the same as if the double did not happen at all, at least in the few I have seen and measured.  Of course, that would argue power levels and things like that, but have we looked at that closely enough to dismiss it?  Unlikely, for sure, but an interesting thought process.

Or what if it is a local, but common, signal.

Just for reference though, I have heard this signal, or what appears to be this signal, at decent power levels in some pretty remote locations, sometimes dozens of miles from the closest power lines, let alone anything else.  For example, I have heard it in Striped Butte Valley, in the Panamint mountain range, I have heard it in Saline Valley, and I have heard it in the Owlshead Mountains.



All those folks share something that all pirate broadcasters want: to be recognized. If no one seems to hear them they "leak" the information to their community of listeners or they pose as a listener and tell of their "discovery". There was a pirate SW broadcaster here in Orange County (Santa Ana) that could not keep his mouth shut and was repeatedly busted because he loved to know that people heard him and made it easy for the FCC to know he was on the air. I won't point out anybody here but when I read some messages I have to say out loud "Exactly how did you know that detail?".

I can think of close to, if not more than, a dozen pirate / hobby beacons that have been active in the past that no one ever stepped forward on.

I put one on 13559 kHz 3 years ago and it ran for almost a year before dieing, I never told anyone about it myself, but saw several reports of it.  I never reported it myself.

There are at least 2 probable ditters / beacons on air right now that I have not heard anyone claim.  The "third" beacon in the Rainy / Rocky set has not, as far as I know, been claimed, and it has been active for some time.  The 2016.26 kHz ditter has been active for many months and has not been, as far as I know, claimed.  And it has only been reported by me as far as I know, however I am hearing it over a pretty fair geographical area.


Of course the ISM band is used by many signals, that is the very purpose of it but not a reason to conclude that this is someone's beacon. It is a nice place for hobbyists to transmit flea powered signals but so far we have different signals in different geographic areas that have common characteristics including pretty reliable reception.

Now after all of that I have to say I love the discussion, I love seeing your and Dag's thoughts and it is a lot of fun! No one wants to take any of it personally but that happens when reading text on a forum even if it is meant to be emotionless technical prose.   ;D

Part of my issue with this signal is my direction of arrival and my location.  The direction I am receiving it from just does not argue something local or industrial.  But it does argue something high on a mountain.  Except for private homes there just is not much in that direction from me, but there is the Sierra Nevada's, in fact the bearing is pretty much in line with Whitney or the area around there.  On the other hand if I am having consistent reflection or multipath issues my bearing could be completely out to lunch and misleading.  Until it can be confirmed I would call that possible direction.


T!
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline Token

  • Global Moderator
  • DX Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1798
    • View Profile
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2015, 0255 UTC »
OK, so mystery not quite solved, but in the right direction.

These are not an intentional beacon of any kind.  What they are I do not know, but they are ISM / Part 15 / incidental type things.

The wife decided she wanted to go out in the desert and take some pictures of wild flowers today.  I am always up for driving and walking around in the desert, so I thought I would grab a loop antenna and get some cross cuts for bearing on this and the 3rd beacon in the Rocky / Rainy set.

We jumped in the Blazer and I tuned the TS-480 to 13559 kHz USB, and set the Tarheel 300.  As soon as I left the area of my house the signal started increasing in strength.  Half a mile away it was S9...and then it started decreasing strength.  I stopped and spun the loop around, the null pointed at a utility pole I had just passed.  The cut from the house (using the beam there, not a loop) would also have pointed right at that pole.

On the way to the area of the desert we were heading for I decided to drive through the heart of town, small though it may be.  Sure enough, I periodically would hear a signal rise up out of the noise, peak in power, and fade back down to unreadable.  So multiple sources in a small area, each with a limited range.

Now, I have heard this signal all over, including as I said before in some pretty remote locations, so this just did not fit.  When I finally got to the area we were going to take pictures at, easily 10 miles from the nearest home I could still sometimes hear the signal, but now weak and thready.  I broke out the loop to get a direction on it and found I really could not get a good null.  This is consistent with a sky wave signal.

So it appears this signal is a local signal, but also must have some outlets in some locations with significant power behind them.  If you have a local source you probably cannot hear or are less likely to notice the distant source.  Sure enough when I got home I used the loop to null out the ditter I had been hearing there, and could make out another, weaker, one.

T!
T!
Mojave Desert, California USA

Offline Teotwaki

  • Moderator
  • DX Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1810
  • California
    • View Profile
    • My adventures are at Sun To The North
Re: Pips 13559 kHz
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2015, 1717 UTC »
Well bless Missus Token!! She got you out in the fresh air and you got in some great sleuthing. Most Excellent!
Jim
NRD-525, Elecraft KX3 and Elecraft PX3 Spectrum Display
76' end fed long wire & 66' off-center fed dipole for 10/20/40 meters
Orange County, SoCal, The better half