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Messages - tybee

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Amateur Radio / Re: Snotty Hams
« on: November 09, 2022, 1820 UTC »
You shouldnt say Hams are snotty, It's just that you met up with a snotty Ham. People in general can be snotty regardless of their expertise or hobby.

By the way, @Rizla, this may be an ignorant question on my part, but what are "drunk zones of 80m"?

As we all know, the Part 15 realm encompasses far more than just intentional AM and FM broadcasting; The most predominant use of part 15 today is undoubtedly Wi-fi broadcasting.. and/or perhaps our cellphones.

I recently, (while trying to track down some 1938 FCC dockets) had a conversation with Michael Marcus, the FCC engineer who was largely responsible for creating the WIFI band. During our conversation he had mentioned that Part 15 was worth more than $90 Billion a year today...

 That stuck in my head, and though that tidbit of info has little to do with my specific research of Part 15 LPAM history, I was curious if that number was accurate (90 Billion is unfathomable number to me - like the number of sand crystals on a beach!) - While I did not really doubt his knowledge, further conformation is found at the NTCA website (which somehow is an acronym of The Internet & Television Association):

"A new report from the Consumer Technology Association (CTA) estimates that Wi-Fi and other unlicensed wireless technologies generate $95.8 billion per year for the American economy in technology sales alone...

..So what is unlicensed spectrum? The term refers to the radio frequencies set up to drive innovation—they are open to any use and by anyone, as long as devices follow certain technical rules. Decades ago, the US was the first country in the world to create unlicensed spectrum and it was one of the best decisions the FCC ever made..."


Particularly liked their definition of the part 15 spectrum too (shown above.

Part 15 AM and FM Station Operation / Re: Music licensing concerns?
« on: November 02, 2022, 1807 UTC »
..I managed a talk station, but the network i ran used real music as bumpers, i had to pay music licensing.Doesnt matter if youre running talk or rebroadcast someone else, if you are broadcasting real music.. you are supposed to pay.

Something I noticed.. I like listening to the late night Coast to Coast AM program, so I'm also a subscriber so I can download the programs to listen to whenever I want. I noticed that the downloaded versions used to always omit the  copyrighted bumper music.. Well not sure when it changed but now the downloaded versions of the shows DO include the bumper music. I've been curious what changed recently (in the past year or so) to allow for it.

Another thing.. When looking back at the campus stations of the 40s 50s and 60s, I've never found reference to if they had to, or if they did, pay any royalties or not.

After an inquiry at https://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=419324&p=3583238#p3583238
I've come to realize phono-occilators had actually been around for years, at least since 1935, yet despite it being illegal they wer not causing a problem so evidently the FCC just looked the other way while they were manufactured and sold.

You know it's kind of interesting.. The very first part 15 devices ever sold were AM transmitters (phono-occilators), they came on the market sometime around November of1938.. about a month before part 15 was created.

So technically they were illegal. The Part 15 rules allowing for intentional broadcasting were literally created to accommodate the legal use of those tinytransmitters, as well as for the upcoming Philco remote control - which went on the market slmost immediate after Part 15 was inacted, as did also electric garage door openers.

But the original part 15 device was LPAM,

Part 15 in general is a multi-billion dollar industry today (I think 90 billion has been quoted). If it hadn't of been for a little 1938 AM transmitter with a range hardly capable of crossing the room over 80 years ago, we might not have things like wifi, cellphones, remote controls and what have you today.

I still haven't pinpointed exactly who was manufacturing phono-occilators in 1938, but they were on the market.

Part 15 AM and FM Station Operation / Re: Music licensing concerns
« on: October 23, 2022, 2050 UTC »
No.. I stand corrected, your right it was the 1990s- thats when Hoitie and them was promoted when nobody knew who they were

I seem to recall a multi-followed-up story from the 1990´s about a record company using an AM Part 15 station to promote new artists' releases by a very busy NYC roadway. This was just before the internet took-off. So, since they´ve used Part 15 as a tool themselves, hopefully, they don´t want to rock-the-boat.

You are referring to Atlantic Records part 15 install outside the Holland Tunnel but it was actually during the 1980s.. one of the new unknown artist they broadcast was Hootie and the  Blowfish.. this then unknown group grew in popularity because of those part 15 am broadcast as Atlantic Records pointed our

Part 15 AM and FM Station Operation / Re: Music licensing concerns
« on: October 20, 2022, 1938 UTC »
Part 15 rebroacast of licensed stattions isnt something new.. Back in the 1950s they reused the equipment first used on the George Washington Bridge in 1940 and installed a part 15 AM cable in the Lincoln Tunnel in the 1950s ( and again in the 1980s) which, unlike the prior, usually rebroadcasted music from a variety of local stations but had the capability to break in with traffic information when warrented. I presume those rebroadcast did not pay royalties (but there's no documentation to confirm that either way). in fact I've never come across any documentations ( other than at campus stations) specifically concerning part 15 broadcasts paying for music royalties - and its not, and has never been something the FCC concerns itself with anyway.. it's just not of their jurisdiction.

The Tunnel Radio franchise installed many such systems in the decades past but the subject of copyright was apparently never addressed.

In fact its worth noting there's no known circumstance (that Im aware) of a part 15 station ever being cited by  BMI, AMI, ASCAP, or whoever for not paying royalties... so if it's not happened before in the last half century, maybe it never will .

I was just reading a 2014 article about the FCC opening up the 600mhz band (part 15) for tv at https://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/fcc-supports-more-unlicensed-use-tv-600-mhz-bands - - I realize its completely off-topic in regard to AM and FM broadcasting, but the article made mention of something I never knew that I found interesting...

"...Commissioner Jessica Rosenworcel pointed out how three decades ago, the commission was looking at what to do for airwaves that were designated for industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) uses. The spectrum once deemed as "garbage bands" ultimately ended up being spectrum where Wi-Fi was born. Today, nearly one-half of all wireless data connections in the U.S. are offloaded onto unlicensed spectrum..."

What struck me is that control of ISM emissions is exactly the primary reason prompting the creation of part 15 in 1938 (it was not as legend has it, because of the invention of the Philco "magic-eye" remote control, although that and phono oscillators entering the market did play a small part in the decision). I also had no clue that wifi arose from utilizing freqiency bands which had prevously always been considered as completely useless for intentional broadcasting.

Excerpted from

Which Type of Testing Is Right for You?

The total cost of FCC certification depends on the type of FCC testing that you need... ...The most rigorous type of testing is FCC Part 15 Certification. The purpose of this testing is to verify that the electromagnetic interference, or EMI, emitted by your product does not exceed the FCC’s limits....

Average Cost of Testing.. First, keep in mind that the cost of FCC testing depends on several factors, including the type of electronic device you are selling into market and how much work is involved within the testing process. That said, there are a few average estimates that you can use as a guide.

Generally speaking, one can expect to pay anywhere between $3,000 and $5,000 for FCC testing. However, testing for modules & more complex devices can be much costlier. In addition, it is important to take other expenses into consideration, such as the cost of labor. The total cost is also influenced by how extensive the testing process is....

Armchair speculation tells me basically all that's needed for certification with 15.219 is the 100mw input at the final stage and a confirmation its not emiting spuriuos waves. What justifies a thousands of dollar price tag for that?

Yes.  Getting a transmitter tested for FCC approval can run into the 5 figure category.


I didn't realize a multimeter and a measuring tape could cost so much

Part 15 AM and FM Station Operation / Re: Introducing Parking Lot Radio!
« on: September 29, 2022, 1530 UTC »
Saw in the Carl Blare blog that Parking Lot radio transmitter is not going to happen, a few hours later the HB forum reported the same thing. Here's  a copy of their announcement:

"After careful consideration of the general market, supply chain and logistics issues,
as well as FCC licensing costs, it has been deemed that we will be unable to proceed
with the production of Parking Lot Radio.
For those of you generous followers that committed funding in advance,
please contact Jim Hendershot at jim@radiodesign.com
for details on how to receive a refund.
We appreciate your support and offer our apologies for the inconvenience.
We sincerely thank you for your interest in Radio Design Group and our products.
We hope you’ll find our continuing communications helpful and informative.
Follow our social media pages for more!"

Is getting transmitter tested for certification really that much of an expense?

Part 15 AM and FM Station Operation / Re: What has become of NOUOs?
« on: September 26, 2022, 1652 UTC »
An interesting tidbit concerning NOUOs: From 2002 till about 2009, every AM notice specified the following or a variation thefeof:

"...Radio stations must be licensed by the FCC pursuant to 47 U.S.C. S 301.
   The only exception to this licensing requirement is for certain
   transmitters using or operating at a power level or mode of operation that
   complies with the standards established in Part 15 of the Commission's
   rules, 47 C.F.R. SS 15.1 et seq. The field strength of the signal on
   frequency 1620 kHz was measured at 23,600 microvolts per meter (uV/m) at
   75 meters, which exceeded the maximum permitted level of 250 uV/m at 3
   meters for non-licensed devices. Thus, this station is operating in
   violation of 47 U.S.C. S 301."

In no citation from 2002 to 2009 did any of the NOUOs investigate, or even mention the alternate opion of operating under 15.219,  but in 2009 that changed, now every NOUO since includes investigation and report checking the compliance of both 15.209 or 15.219.

What prompted this change? It was the two and a half year battle of KENC AM 1650 with an inspecting FCC agent beginning back in 2009. Now all NOUOs address both options instead of just field strength.

Part 15 AM and FM Station Operation / Music licensing concerns
« on: September 26, 2022, 1555 UTC »
I realize probably 95% of part 15 hobbyist don't bother with paying music royalties, and in certain cases it's not even a requirement. But for those utilizing part 15 as a mean of public performance and are concerned about being 100% legal, then a reliable source of information on the subject can be reviewed in the publication "Use of Copyrighted Music on College and University Campuses" (Campus Stations are part 15 operations too)

Part 15 AM and FM Station Operation / Re: What has become of NOUOs?
« on: September 26, 2022, 1428 UTC »
Wow.. Thanks, didn't know that.

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